Traditional Style Tanto Bevels and Materials

[F Niz]

Hey guys. Sorry for posting a new thread if these question have been answered, but I’ve been sitting on this phone for a long time reading and honestly it’s just so much easier to ask flat out.

I bought some W2 and after finishing two western style “tantos”, I’ve decided hell, why not try to make a real one? I’ve read a lot, but the most precise sources also require a lot of pre-education with language (I found Stacy explaining a lot of this so thanks there). So, I’m still highly confused.

So here are my biggest concerns:
1) Bevels.
I’ve noticed that on katanas, for example, that the grind looks to go all the way into the tang, as if it is ground and then the tang is filed in afterwards. I basically just want to make a generally-correct tanto, it doesn’t have to be truly accurate. Is it ok to make a normal tang without this? Namely can I just grind the blade down into the habaki?
The geometry is my biggest concern. Do they share the same kind of geometry as a Katana? My first thoughts were that I would do a flat grind but go in with some files and, by hand, maybe even with a slack belt, make it convex down to the edge. I’m more worried about the handle construction in terms of accuracy, as long as the blade looks basically correct that’s fine (provided I get the grind right, I don’t havee any jigs so I have to do it free hand... I feel like that’s all the fun).
So if anyone could give a brief answer to the geometry of the bevels, even a picture that would be great.

2) Habaki etc materials.
My thoughts were that I’d just use some brass honestly. I could try nickel or something but I’m not going to. I was thinking maybe 1/16” for the habaki brass? Any recommendations for this, including the gaurd (tsuba I think)?

Thanks

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

OK, I'll talk in English:

1) The bevels (zukuri) are determined by the blade grind and shape (sugata). If it is a FFG ( hira zukuri) then it is ground just like a kitchen knife. The grind may also be convex. If it has a ridge line ( shinogi zukuri), then grind it sort of like a Scandi.
2) The blade can be quite thin, but try and avoid a fat and heavy blade. Most first tanto are way too thick.
3) The habaki can be whatever you want to do it in. I like copper, silver, and bronze ... but brass is fine.
4) W2 is a good tanto material. It produces a great hamon. However, a hamon is not necessary. It will take a very sharp edge. Rc62 is a good target hardness.
5) The tsuba ( guard) can be shaped round, square, or rectangle ... and made of bronze, iron, steel, water buffalo horn, or brass. Keep it fairly small compared to a sword tsuba. Some are barely a 1/4" lip. You can also leave the tsuba off ... that is called Aikuchi instead of Tanto.
6) The handle (tsuka) should be the same size and curvature as the sheath ( saya). It is simplest to make a sacrificial wood or micarta spacer to replace the guard and grind it and the tsuka and saya at the same time while on the blade. Once they are shaped together, take them apart, and make the handle ( tsuka) a bit smaller, as you have to allow for the wrap (ito) thickness. I sometimes make a wooden blade to match the steel one and use it to do all the tsuka/saya shaping.
7) A collar/bolster (fuchi) and butt cap (kashira) are nice, but not absolutely necessary. In fact, ito wrap isn't a requirement ... buy these things are traditional and part of the fittings ( koshirae).
8) Water buffalo horn is a great material for the ends of the saya ( koi-guchi and kojiri), tsuba, fichi, and kashira. A modern replacement for it is linen or canvas Micarta.

 

[F Niz]

Thanks Stacy, I’ll have to come back and review as I go, because I know I’ll forget much of this and I’m clueless on it honestly.

I think I’ll go for a grind with a ridge line (if I recall one of your posts this is either the shinogi or shinogi ji I think, the ridge line). I think I can safely do a convex grind, probably more so than a truly flat grind, even if it takes me some time to even everything out.

As for the brass, I’ve noticed it isn’t very popular with experiences knife makers. However since I have it I’m just going to go with it, save some money since I don’t even know how this is going to go. I just need to order some sheet brass. I usually lacquer brass, but maybe not here I don’t know.

In the end I want to at least do a habaki, the two spacers, the tsuba, the ito wrap, and the two fittings on the tsuka extremities. I highly doubt I’ll use ray skin, I’ll likely use a faux material or something else. I think if I can do all of those parts, it will look pretty traditional. Then in the future I can do it better with some more experience.

I guess some questions I’d still like to ask if Stacy or anyone wanders back here with some more free time:

-On the habaki, I know on the spine side that there is a recess where the tang shoulder rests, but I can’t see how it works on the edge side. From pictures it looks like the grind goes all the way under that area, and that the edge just goes under the habaki, so is there something that this shoulder rests on? Maybe a piece of material stuck inside and brazed? It looks like the edge goes all the way down to the shoulder.

-I guess some 1/16” and 1/8” sheet should cover me for all of the parts (excluding the tsuba, as I have some 1/4 inch brass that I’ll use)? The end cap and the bolster I suppose could be solid but it doesn’t look like they usually are. I’m planning on getting some silver “sodder”.

Thanks again
Frank.

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

The ridge line is called the shinogi. Convex grind is more traditional.

The spacers are called seppa. They are more important on a sword than a tanto. I rarely use them on tanto, and just make the tsuba a good fit on the tang ( nakago).

The "shoulders" on the spine (mune) and edge (ha) are called machi. They are called the ha-machi and the mune-machi, and ar both positioned equally. . The shoulder is about an 1/8" deep at most. many are more like 1/16" deep. The habaki rests against them. The habaki is open on both sides partway back so it slides past the mach and then the solid part seats against them.

Brass is fine, but many don't like the way it ages. Brass patina isn't as attractive as copper and bronze. Another problem with brass is it isn't as easy to silver solder together.

A copper pipe coupling or 1" piece of copper pipe can be hammered and shaped into a habaki with ease. Just anneal it, shape a bit, anneal, shape, repeat, etc.. I think I did a tutorial on that a while back. Copper hammers nicely with a polished small ball peen hammer tip and takes on a nice wrought finish. Copper can also make the other fittings. If you need a flat piece, slit one side of a piece of pipe and flatten it out. Scrap pieces of copper pipe can be found for free in many places. Any plumber will give you a foot, which is more than enough for practice and the finished pieces of a tanto. If buying it on ebay, get the heavier type L copper pipe.

The collar and butt cap (fuchi and kashira) are normally hollow, and usually thin. They are basically an oval piece of tubing with an end brazed ( silver soldered) on. These parts can be plain, engraved, hammered/textured, or decorated with cut out shapes, animals, plants, etc. silver soldered on them.
A piece of 3/4" thick canvas Micarta can make very nice fuchi and kashira. You can stack three pieces of 1/4" Micarta and get a two or three color effect.

Many leather stores, and online sellers have grab bags or odd pieces of textured leather that is perfect for a tsuka under-wrap. Ostrich grain, lizard/frog skin, suede, alligator grain, etc. all work. I have lots of this and would be glad to send you some if you need it.

I'll try and look around for another tutorial I took photos of on making fancy fuchi and kashira in sterling ( which I sell to other swordmakers).

 

[F Niz]

The ridge line is called the shinogi. Convex grind is more traditional.

The spacers are called seppa. They are more important on a sword than a tanto. I rarely use them on tanto, and just make the tsuba a good fit on the tang ( nakago).

The "shoulders" on the spine (mune) and edge (ha) are called machi. They are called the ha-machi and the mune-machi, and ar both positioned equally. . The shoulder is about an 1/8" deep at most. many are more like 1/16" deep. The habaki rests against them. The habaki is open on both sides partway back so it slides past the mach and then the solid part seats against them.

Brass is fine, but many don't like the way it ages. Brass patina isn't as attractive as copper and bronze. Another problem with brass is it isn't as easy to silver solder together.

A copper pipe coupling or 1" piece of copper pipe can be hammered and shaped into a habaki with ease. Just anneal it, shape a bit, anneal, shape, repeat, etc.. I think I did a tutorial on that a while back. Copper hammers nicely with a polished small ball peen hammer tip and takes on a nice wrought finish. Copper can also make the other fittings. If you need a flat piece, slit one side of a piece of pipe and flatten it out. Scrap pieces of copper pipe can be found for free in many places. Any plumber will give you a foot, which is more than enough for practice and the finished pieces of a tanto. If buying it on ebay, get the heavier type L copper pipe.

The collar and butt cap (fuchi and kashira) are normally hollow, and usually thin. They are basically an oval piece of tubing with an end brazed ( silver soldered) on. These parts can be plain, engraved, hammered/textured, or decorated with cut out shapes, animals, plants, etc. silver soldered on them.
A piece of 3/4" thick canvas Micarta can make very nice fuchi and kashira. You can stack three pieces of 1/4" Micarta and get a two or three color effect.

Many leather stores, and online sellers have grab bags or odd pieces of textured leather that is perfect for a tsuka under-wrap. Ostrich grain, lizard/frog skin, suede, alligator grain, etc. all work. I have lots of this and would be glad to send you some if you need it.

I'll try and look around for another tutorial I took photos of on making fancy fuchi and kashira in sterling ( which I sell to other swordmakers).

Thanks a ton for all of the info Stacy, that answers all of my questions and more. Without coming on here I would’ve had to spend a lot of time searching the web, or messing things up myself.

So yeah I think I’m ready to give it a go then. For now I’m just focused on getting the blade done, which I haven’t started grinding since I’ve been busy in the shop recently (I have the profile done basically, just have to start grinding).

I have some leather I was using for sheaths so I’ll give that a try most likely. Thanks very much for the offer on the materials, that’s a rare thing to see online or anywhere today. Personally I’m the kind of person who feels too guilty for taking things from people, but perhaps I can buy some stuff off of you one day if I need it (maybe when I make a nicer blade and need some better stuff). For now I’m going to make this out of my basic stuff mostly just to get the experience. I’m still in that practicing realm where I haven’t begun to think about selling stuff yet. I still have to test my blades thoroughly as well.

Anyway thanks again, it’s much appreciated.
Frank

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

You are welcome. The offer stands. A nice patterned thin leather is more suitable than thicker plain sheath leather for the layer under the wrap.

A low priced alternative to ito on a first attempt is using black paracord with the core pulled out. It can be wrapped in a regiular paracord wrap, or done like tsuka-maki.

Another semi-traditional tanto handle wrap is 1/2" wide thin leather lace wrapped in a continuos spiral. Use a thumbtack to attach the lace to the end of the tsuka, put a very light coat of Leather Weld (or Tightbond) on the tsuka. You want a tacky base coat, not a covering of liquid glue. Spiral the leather around the tsuka while keeping tension on it. Tack down the other end and let it dry overnight.

 

[F Niz]

You are welcome. The offer stands. A nice patterned thin leather is more suitable than thicker plain sheath leather for the layer under the wrap.

A low priced alternative to ito on a first attempt is using black paracord with the core pulled out. It can be wrapped in a regiular paracord wrap, or done like tsuka-maki.

Another semi-traditional tanto handle wrap is 1/2" wide thin leather lace wrapped in a continuos spiral. Use a thumbtack to attach the lace to the end of the tsuka, put a very light coat of Leather Weld (or Tightbond) on the tsuka. You want a tacky base coat, not a covering of liquid glue. Spiral the leather around the tsuka while keeping tension on it. Tack down the other end and let it dry overnight.

Oh yeah, of course, the 6-7 ounce leather I have is way too thick, I didn’t even think of that. True, I will have to grab something else. I’ll keep your offer in mind when I get to that point, although I have a feeling it will be a while at the rate I’m going. I have to get through the HT, which will be new for me with W2. I’ve done my research though, and I now have a thermocouple that I’m going to use in an attempt at getting a consistent temperature (in order to get a better soak, even if just a couple minutes). This time I have ferric chloride as well, although with my last water quench the lemon juice was really nice.

Anyway, I actually have some copper. At the shop we’ve had a big roll of sheet copper for years, 1/8”ish and a good 8-10” tall (no idea on the length left, several feet at least). I’ve used it for spacer material once, it’s easy to work but it has a heavy patina and I find it hard to flatten.

I wonder if I could use brass for the gaurd still with copper elsewhere, I feel like that might not look right though. The copper is much more of a reddish color than the brass, which is that bright gold-ish brass color (I guess this is all obvious). I guess I’d have to go with one material or at least change the color/patina somehow of the brass or copper. I’m thinking since the tsuba doesn’t have to be as huge on a tanto that I may be able to use a couple layers of the copper to make it, and maybe sodder the outside to make it solid. I don’t think the sheet is thick enough with one piece, it may even be 1/16” I’m not sure. It’s oretty thin.

 

[F Niz]

Tomorrow I have to buy some stuff at a local store. I’m going to pick up some copper pipe/tubing and whatever else I find along those lines. Maybe I can find something better than my sheet for the gaurd. I never would’ve thought of piping that’s pretty cool, easy to get too.

That copper I mentioned though, we’ve had for years, I’m just not sure what type of copper it is (I’m guessing there are different alloys or whatever). We basically just use it to protect shafts on rotors and stuff when we have to weld over the shaft. It’s been there for probably 30 years.
Edit: to return the kindness... If you want any let me know (I’m sure you don’t need it of all people). Also if you ever need something dynamically balanced, let me know (I know, that’s a rare occasion, but still, it’s nice to have motors and drives running stupidly smooth, even if just for kicks).

Oh and as for the leather wrap, I feel like that’s simpler in a sense, although how good I could do it wil probably be the decisive factor. I’ve never done a leather wrap. Personally I really like the ito wrap look, I think it looks awesome.

 

[F Niz]

Alrighty. Well I finished the blade (I’m not quite done with polishing and etching, I will probably work on it a little more). The W2 hardened well enough it seems, using my Rockwell files on it. The tip and the bottom of the edge seem to have hardened slightly less, but they are still hard. I was a little too safe when trying not to overheat the tip. The blade was thick still and it didn’t heat up super quickly. It did warp in the water (3 second water with some dish soap, heated, then immediately into canola oil), but I fixed it after the first temper cycle using a vice and slight heat from a small torch. I should’ve prepared for this ahead of time so I could get the clay off and straighten before it got down to ~200 or whatever, but it worked.

Unfortunately I made it too short obviously, for a tanto, which seem to be noticeably longer blades usually. However I didn’t want to use a ton of my W2 on my first try. The grind came out pretty well. After hand sanding you can’t see the grind line too much, but I managed to get a pretty nice symmetric convex grind, with a taper to the point (not a perfectly even one, but good enough). I’m not looking forward to making this handle, but I’m going to give it a try.

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

Tanto can be any length from 6" to 12".

 

[Richard338]

Looks good. I used silicon bronze for a habaki. Easy to work with, just annealed it a couple times along the way. I liked that it matched the bronze brazing rod I used to join it (no visible joint).
I darkened it with cold blue to a color I'm happy with...

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

I use livers of sulfur to blacken copper. Soak for an hour, rinse and clean with a toothbrush, soak again, repeat. After a few hours it will form a rich silver-black patina that is permanent. It looks like ancient Japanese silver fittings.

 

[F Niz]

Yeah my habaki has some gold braze on it lol, but it’s not too bad. I’m going to try Stacy’s approach of changing the color. I had brass around the shop so I used that for the tsuba. I unfortunately re-ground my blade for a few reasons, mostly to put the angle down the whole tang. So I’ll have to finish it again. Here is the rough finished stuff. I have two random holes that won’t be used in the end. Also my tang is short but I don’t think it will be a big issue. The rough made tsuba is pretty hefty, it’s 1/4” brass. So I’m not sure what I’ll do there.

Edit: also the habaki I wanted to make from thicker copper but I was too impatient to wait until I got 1/8”. I used tubing like Stacy mentioned, and since it came out looking ok I’m going with it. At least this knife won’t be a permanently bonded handle, so I can always go and make nicer fittings, which is cool I think.

 

[Richard338]

I agree, the tsuba looks pretty thick in the photos.
I'm puzzled, the last two photos show quite a different geometry towards the tip...
Is it just the perspective?

 

[F Niz]

I agree, the tsuba looks pretty thick in the photos.
I'm puzzled, the last two photos show quite a different geometry towards the tip...
Is it just the perspective?

Sorry I know the pictures aren’t the best, but yeah it’s just the angle. I wanted a photo from the spine side and the edge side to show the habaki. I just rolled it over but it looks weird with the shadows.

I’m not sure how thick a tsuba should be honestly so I’m going to look into it a little more. Stacy said on a tanto It doesn’t have to be that big, so I’ll probably make it smaller or even take out some material and make a pattern (not sure I can pull that off too well without ruining one or two, I’ve never made a tsuba).

Basically I had 1/4” brass already so I just decided to use it since I haven’t been using brass on my last couple knives and it’s just sitting.

 

[Richard338]

I've seen 3/16" on katanas. I used 1/8" for mine and was happy with the proportions.

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

Overall, the tanto looks very good. You kept it sleek and make a good tip on it. Many first tanto are far too fat bladed and have a 45° tip. Your habaki looks nice. Good job! I like to file the front edge at 45° so it doesn't whack into the koi-guchi as it slides in the sheath.

The tsuba is about twice as thick as it should be. 1/8" would have been fine. If it was in buffalo horn, I could see it being 3/16" or so, but in brass, it is too thick by a lot. It is hard to tell with the tsuka not in place, but it looks a tad large in size, too. That isn't as much an issue as the thickness.
I would suggest getting a piece of 1/8" brass and re-doing it. At this point it is just a little extra work and will make a huge difference in the final outcome. We are only talking about $2 worth of brass. I would send you a piece rather than see your tanto have a too thick tsuba. Don't feel bad, because most first tanto and kata have a tsuba far too thick. Just be glad you still can change it. Even if you have already cut and fit the tsuka, you could add a couple seppa between the tsuka/tsuba to make a thinner tsuba work.

I also saw the difference in the tip in the photos. I think it is a shadow in the one shot that makes it look round. I like the profile (O-kissaki) in the clearer photo.

 

[F Niz]

Edited: Thanks Stacy, I spent a lot of time on the grind trying to get it decent. Unfortunately I didnt see your reply until today, after finishing the tsuba (the size at least, btw it’s hard to see but the shape is a four leaf clover almost, that kind of look... the weird look here is just the reflections on it). I did see Richard’s though and took the advice, making the tsuba thinner. I ground it with a good 36, didn’t take long and it’s flat thankfully.

I had to make spacers to get the fit right, but honestly I’m very happy so far with it. Surprisingly I got the maple handle done with a very snug fit, clean. It’s from an old butcher’s block table. I made a pin from wood too so that I can jam it in easily and get a right fit (I know it’s usually bamboo or something but I don’t have any).

The handle seems a tiny bit chunky, but not by much. I don’t have big hands and it feels good in my hands. The top copper fitting (sorry, I need to look up some of the words again) on the wood looks like it may be a bit big. I like the thickness of it since I think it will be good once the handle is wrapped up, but maybe it should be shorter vertically. Not sure. As for the handle itself I don’t really want to mess with the wood anymore so unless someone tells me I should, I probably won’t.

So that is the current state of the knife. My biggest concern is the habaki now, because of the way it sits and messing up the grind on it, it dips below the silhouette of the spine now. I might have to make another now which sucks, but at least it will be better. I also dinged it so I made little decorative dings on it to hide it lol, which is stupid of course. I’ll have to fix it somehow, which I could do I think. I also dropped the knife, luckily I didn’t do too much damage. I still have to finish all of it anyway.

So are there any issues noticeable? Thanks.

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

Looks pretty good for a first tanto.

OK, here are what hits me in the photos:
It looks like you just left the tang as a bar of steel. That is not how the nakago is shaped. They are beveled and the ha side rises to the mune side. Look as some photos of bare blades and you will get the idea.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dd/Katana_mei_and_tachi_mei.jpg
http://moziru.com/images/drawn-katana-nakago-18.jpg

The tsuka ( handle) is a bit squared off. It should be more curved and just a bit larger than the blade at the habaki. This takes carefully fitted tsuka halves on a properly shaped nakago. The saya should match it in size.
http://cdn1.bigcommerce.com/server4..._Reverse_Blade__63080.1344571947.1000.675.jpg

The blade is normally curved slightly ( but can be straight), and tapered. The taper of the blade makes fitting the saya to the handle size easier. Here are some links to images that are pretty good in proportions. One is Aikuchi ( no guard) and the other is tanto. Notice how small the guard is on the tanto (a tanto with a small guard is called Hamidashi):
http://www.katana-samurai-sword.com/images/Tiger Tanto, 008.jpg

http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/swordsmith-Yao/media/bWVkaWFJZDo3Mjg1MzI5OQ==/?ref=

The kissaki looks a bit more rounded than it did in the second photo earlier. I like O-kissaki tanto with a bit more point. Your is OK, I'm just saying it might look a bit sleeker if it was less rounded at the tip.

Maple will be fine for the mekugi (peg). You can order a bag of bamboo pegs on ebay.

Here is a chart with blade size and info. It is useful for getting proportions:
http://ravencresttactical.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/japanese-swords-types1.jpg
http://outsiderjapan.pbworks.com/f/1234287156/blade1.jpg

 

[F Niz]

Thanks for the reply Stacy.

As for the tang, I did initially grind it like a normal knife, you can see in that picture with the hamon that it has a curved grind line by the tang. I actually went and destroyed the finish to regrind the tang, and also the knife a little bit (I had a lot of material... those cubitron belts stay so cool it’s almost shocking). My tang isn’t that perfect shape with a sharp corner, but it is basically that shape, just a slightly rounded corner to match the blade. if I take my parts off the blade they have a V shape that becomes parallel near the spine. I asked that initially in one of my first posts because I noticed it on Japanese blades, but I didn’t do it at first. I figured it out when I went to make the habaki, and it didn’t work.

The handle I made is basically a frame handle I guess. The two sides are cut out and then put together. It does have that V shape like my tang, and fits very well. But yeah there still is room to grind more wood off. I guess I’ll have to do that then (urgh, I hate grinding wood). The fitting it’s a solid 1/16 thick. I’m going to make it take up a lot less space.

As for the shape, yeah I can definitely see that mine isn’t like the others there. In the future I’m going to look at a lot more pictures. I’m kind of an idiot there lol, I have barely looked at anything, I’m just making shit. The blade does have a slight curve toward the spine. It doesn’t have the taper you’re talking about though (has a distal taper, but not in the other plane). I initially made it with a slight curvature, but I heard it curves in the water so I didn’t make it too big. I guess my problem is I wasn’t separating Katana from Tanto in my mind, it’s like I thought a Tanto was just a mini Katana, and I just made what I thought a Katana would look like. Next time I’ll have to try to get a better geometry, but I think for this one, I’m mostly done there. I’ve spent too much time on it and it’s gettitn stupid now. I kind of just want to finish it.

Also honestly I really have no clue how to grind a tip like this. That’s probably the hardest part. However I probably could go back and make it better. If I make it more like the pictures, I would have to grind the actual edge down on the tip, then go back and remove material to bring it down to an edge again. It’s possible, I’m pretty sure. But do I want to open that can of worms? I don’t know.

Thanks again.