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Traditional vs "Habaki Type" Bolsters... What are the differences/pros & cons?
- Thread starter Drdan
- Start date
The habaki bolster is a special friend of Yvsa I think....
I am not quite sure, but I have a Khuk the traditional bolster and it fits the scabbard really well because the mouth of the scabbard and much of the wood has contact to the sides of the blade. With the habaki-bolster the mouth of the scabbard is modelled after the bolster - and this is not sufficient on all of my khuks, they tend to fall out if I turn them upside down.
The "cho creep" seems to be an issue since the habaki bolsters too. - but I will let the more experienced comment on this.
Andreas
I am not quite sure, but I have a Khuk the traditional bolster and it fits the scabbard really well because the mouth of the scabbard and much of the wood has contact to the sides of the blade. With the habaki-bolster the mouth of the scabbard is modelled after the bolster - and this is not sufficient on all of my khuks, they tend to fall out if I turn them upside down.
The "cho creep" seems to be an issue since the habaki bolsters too. - but I will let the more experienced comment on this.
Andreas
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Originally posted by Drdan
On HI's website, I read that most of HI's khukuris are now furnished with the habaki type bolsters, reather than the traditional type of bolster. Is this a definite upgrade, and if so, what are its advantages? Thanks for your help...
Dan
I personally don't think it's an upgrade of any kind!!!! When the kamis first started doing them the purpose was to make the khuk fit the scabbard better as we were getting lots of loose scabbards and the swell of the so-called habaki bolster would slide into the scabbard making it fit as it should.
The last few I got it seems the sarkis made the scabbards to fit the bolster so it's right back to where it was in the beginning except now the scabbards are really loose, at least on mine, can't speak for anybody else.
I call them "so-called" habaki bolsters because they cover part of the tang instead of going over the blade as a true habaki does.
And by doing so it adds to the already excessive cho creep.
I know that some guys like the cho creep because it gives them some extra room should their hand slip, but I've never had a problem with the cho being up next to the handle like the old khuks and I actually prefer them that way.
Another thing that bothers me about them covering the tang is that it makes the tang longer than what it needs to be and instead of the wood or horn covering that part of the tang it's covered only by a thin sheet of material on each side.
Would they go over the blade instead of the tang I maybe wouldn't have a problem with them.
I also think the original bolster made for a stronger khukuri in the handle area.YMMV.
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So you mean the flat part of the bolster that comes after the bevel isn't even going up the side of the blade? I don't know about the sheath but wouldn't that make the handle weaker? Wouldn't you want the handle material to go over as much of the tang as possible or am I missing something?
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Yvsa - you did good at controlling yourself on that one...
Personally, I like whatever they put on there. The habaki looks better on a longer knife, IMHO.
As far as pros/cons - from a knifemaker's point of view - a habaki helps hide errors in fitting up the tang, so it makes for a cleaner fit-and-finish.
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I'm not sure I understand Yvsa's beef on this one either...could you explain, Yvsa?
The handles I have seen removed all had the handle material go up completely to the blade (cover the entire tang) and then the habaki covered the "joint" by overlapping both handle and blade. My experience may be limited, though...
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Visually I prefer the old style, but functionally (when it helps the scabbard fit tightly) I prefer the habaki style. On my Chiruwa Ang Khola the habaki bolster definately helps it get a snug fit, on the others however its more of a funtion of the blade and the scabbard than the bolster.
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Personally, I prefer the traditional bolster. It may just be my imagination but I think the habaki style bolster has the effect of causing the handle to be made that half-inch shorter. On models like the M43 I find my first finger gripping the bolster itself because the handle just isn't long enough to accomodate my full hand.
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Now that makes sense to me. If it does that then I can see how it would be better than standard type bolster.
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on the habaki bolster thing. t does not seem to add or detract to/from the looks or funnction, IMHO.
Keith
Keith
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Dan if they did what you've seen I may not have any beef with them. However all of them that I have seen the habaki covers an area of tang that would be best covered with the handle material. In other words there is at least a half inch -or more- of tang that is covered by nothing but the bolster material.
HD has it exactly right from what I've seen and it is my opinion that the handle structure -is- weakened by the so-called habaki bolsters.
Crooked Knife also has a valid argument in that the handles are either shorter or like I said before, "The tangs are longer than the old ones were."
And the damned things contribute to the cho creep as well, but I think I said that before too.
But the kamis love them because as you said Dan, "As far as pros/cons - from a knifemaker's point of view - a habaki helps hide errors in fitting up the tang, so it makes for a cleaner fit-and-finish."
IMO the damn kamis are over paid and lazy with the advent of the modern equipment and the so-called habaki bolster.:grumpy:
Just goes to show that most people all over the world are the same and will do only what they have to to get by unless they are held to a higher standard.
I spent 35 years in machine shops and speak from experience.
Edited to embolden Dan's statement.
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Munk the cho creep is just ugly to me but more importantly, to me, it cuts down a bit on the usable edge.
The cho creep in no way weakens the khukuri. And I can understand why some guys like the cho creep and being uncomfortable with the cho so close to the hand.
It just never bothered me. Also the old style curved handles -locked- the hand into place just by gripping them. The straight handles are much easier and simpler to make though and that's what the kamis are gonna do. Human nature like I said before.
The so-called habaki bolster may not weaken the unit either but I would much rather have more of the heavier material like the wood and horn of the handle covering as much tang as possible instead of two thin pieces of soldered metal whether brass, steel, or white metal covering the first 1/2" to 5/8" of tang nextto the blade. Just stands to reason to me that the old style standard bolsters were/are stronger.
Edit:
You can check the fit where the bolster goes by running a fingernail over the joint between the bolster and the blade. I have two setting here beside me that it's very evident where the bolster ends and it is where the blade begins, not over the blade.
I can -feel- the lip on both of these and can actually see it on the other.
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If they are like you say they are Yvsa, I think that could explain why the ones I have seem to get those stress cracks on the back of the handle in the horn from chopping. Especially since it seems like the bolsters aren't totally full of Laha or anything.
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HD I believe the bolsters are as full of laha as they can possibly be as it is usually pokin out the bottom of the bolsters but you may be right about the stress cracks since the handle is further back towards the thinner part of the tang.
But I couldn't say for sure one way or another on that like I can the rest of the bolster but it is possible.
The bolsters on the Foxy Folly aren't as bad since they are not nearly as long as most of them but I still prefer the original style like we used to get, always will I suppose.
The FF that I took apart for rework has had the extension cut off the bolster and is already fitted to go back on. It wasn't a lot of trouble since it was already apart but it would be a hassle to take one apart just to shorten the bolster although in some cases it might be worth it to me.
Thanks Yvsa. I'm the son of an engineer- I know nothing personally, though may have absorbed more than I realize. For instance, if a human being could grip the tang as well as a handle wrapped around the tang, then we wouldn't need the handle. I don't see the handle or location of the bolster changing that- the strength of the blade. Likewise, I cannot see blaming cracks in horn handles on today's bolster. None of which you said- I'm just thinking out loud. It is possible the handle distributes the leverage of the blade, and the more even and consistant the bonding material the better, though again I can't see today's methods changing basic strength of the product.
I agree with you about human nature. The Kamis have departed from the very thin edges they were experimenting with 2 years ago, and returned to the 'partial convex edge .
I really laughed when I read you wanting to see a, 'partial convex edge' it sounded Exactly like something my Old Man would have said.
The Kamis returned to the better edge because too many thin edges were being broken- that has to count eventually. But they haven't returned all the way because of time- it saves time not to do it 'all the way'.
You know me a little bit- and know when I say I've wailed the hell out of a blade you can believe that. (I broke a couple blade edges during the Maoist uprising, a time of very thin edge- hey, the Kamis were walking a very thin edge!) These khuks I have are holding up, Yvsa. That said, I've told you once and I'll say it again here- if you ever grace munk land by selling me one of your heavy 20" or so convex edged Shop One choppers, I'll be a happy man.
I never worried much about my fingers slipping onto the cho or blade or anything. Yvsa, many of my Khuks have curved handles, many are relatively straight.
Anyway, I see one legitimate beef here- cracking horn handles, and another addressed to a certain extent- too thin of an edge.
It would be good if Bill let them know horn is cracking.
munk
I agree with you about human nature. The Kamis have departed from the very thin edges they were experimenting with 2 years ago, and returned to the 'partial convex edge .
I really laughed when I read you wanting to see a, 'partial convex edge' it sounded Exactly like something my Old Man would have said.
The Kamis returned to the better edge because too many thin edges were being broken- that has to count eventually. But they haven't returned all the way because of time- it saves time not to do it 'all the way'.
You know me a little bit- and know when I say I've wailed the hell out of a blade you can believe that. (I broke a couple blade edges during the Maoist uprising, a time of very thin edge- hey, the Kamis were walking a very thin edge!) These khuks I have are holding up, Yvsa. That said, I've told you once and I'll say it again here- if you ever grace munk land by selling me one of your heavy 20" or so convex edged Shop One choppers, I'll be a happy man.
I never worried much about my fingers slipping onto the cho or blade or anything. Yvsa, many of my Khuks have curved handles, many are relatively straight.
Anyway, I see one legitimate beef here- cracking horn handles, and another addressed to a certain extent- too thin of an edge.
It would be good if Bill let them know horn is cracking.
munk
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Munk I agree with what you have said because you have said it and I take you at your word.
All I have been doing I hope was addressing Dan's original post which is...
"
Originally posted by Drdan
On HI's website, I read that most of HI's khukuris are now furnished with the habaki type bolsters, reather than the traditional type of bolster. Is this a definite upgrade, and if so, what are its advantages? Thanks for your help...
Dan
...and the others that chipped in asking why I think the way I do and
if I've been out of line I would appreciate someone telling me so!!!!
I know it's beating a dead horse about the subject of the so-called habaki bolsters and I know that the kamis aren't going to change back, or at least I sincerely doubt it.
But I feel the way I do and that isn't going to change anytime soon either.
If you noticed I didn't bring up the subject of the thin edges.
I'm glad the edges are thicker and not breaking as badly as they did but I would still like to see a partial convex edge as an edge is either convex or it's not.
Actually the term convex edge wasn't an accurate description of the Shop-1 and early Shop-2 khuks as they had a convex grind and the edge was the result of that grind. Basically they were ground like an axe and didn't stick in a cut like some of the hollow ground edges I had on a couple of HI khuks did.
Both of the Foxy Follys I have came to me with a flat saber type grind and a sort of a secondary edge bevel, they weren't convexed on the edge, and the first thing I did to the one with the soft edge was to convex the edge before I tested it and found that horrid soft spot.
The other one I traded for had been tested and I trust the man who tested it so I didn't bother.
But since it was cutting through the side of the scabbard and Terry used the same wood to recover with new leather I had to grind the edge off so that it wouldn't do the same again so the issue became moot anyway.
When I finish it it will have an edge the same as the old Shop-1 khuks.
I still am lusting for a 17"-18" Foxy Folly and would be the very first in line to prepay one should they become available. I still think it would be the -Perfect khukuri-!!!!!
I would prefer that Sher made mine if possible.
And I'm lucky in that I can tweak my khuk's to suit myself so many issues don't bother me anymore. Better living therough chemistry when I have my meds.
I hope that all I have been doing was answering the questions asked without being out of line.
I also agree that something needs to be done within Nepal about the horn handles cracking and the first step is Bill letting them know about it.
Yvsa, we all listen to what you say because your words have the unmistakable sound of both experience and honesty. I want you to look at one of these 'almost convext edge' they make now. We could learn a lot.
You said a long time ago that khuks were made to chop wood and that's what you were going to do with yours. I've always believed that- and that's what I do with mine.
I thought I'd let you know the blades I have- purchased since Ma. of 2002, have held well with the exception of the two during the Maoist time.
I asked Bill about a year ago if I should regret not having an earlier blade- a Shop One blade, and if that was something I should strive to own. No, he said. From what I can tell by accounts and my own experience, today's blades are in line part of the HI family.
Here's something we should talk about: today's blades are lighter. This is pretty consistant now.
munk
You said a long time ago that khuks were made to chop wood and that's what you were going to do with yours. I've always believed that- and that's what I do with mine.
I thought I'd let you know the blades I have- purchased since Ma. of 2002, have held well with the exception of the two during the Maoist time.
I asked Bill about a year ago if I should regret not having an earlier blade- a Shop One blade, and if that was something I should strive to own. No, he said. From what I can tell by accounts and my own experience, today's blades are in line part of the HI family.
Here's something we should talk about: today's blades are lighter. This is pretty consistant now.
munk
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Dunno if that's true or not. I've seen BAS' that range from about 19 oz. to 24 oz. But in a way we haven't seen any that are about 1/2" at the spine either unless those were rare to begin with. I doubt I could use something that were massively thick and heavy. Maybe as a conversation piece though.
