Traditional?

Right you are, and if you're into collecting guns, knives will always seem cheap. ;) Fortunately I don't have that obsession. I've enjoyed reading everyone's well reasoned responses. It's nice to see outside my own head. I'll always lean towards cheaper knives, but I get it.
 
LKJW said:
... when I think about or hold a traditional knife there is part of me that thinks about my grandfather. Every time. And he would never in a million years have spent more than he needed to for a knife.
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I can really relate. My grandad was about as traditional/folksy as it gets. Part of the reason I don't have any high-dollar knives is that somewhere, deep in my core, I feel like he'll smack me in the head once I get to heaven and ask what I was thinking spending $_____ on a knife when Sears sells good ones for $30 or whatever. Not rational, I know, but it's part of how I was raised.

robbobus said:
I buy whatever my hobby budget allows me, how I choose to spend my money after my bills, food and future retirement are looked after is well, up to me. That is a traditional point of view I think.
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Totally agreed. Please guys, buy whatever you want, but only after you've taken care of yourself and your family's needs. And for God's sake, don't buy toys on credit. In fact, a really traditional thing to do would be to take one of your knives and hack up your credit cards.

-- Mark
 
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I have to echo the sentiments about how we define traditionals as opposed to previous generations.

In both my Grandfather and Father's days, there were no "traditionals" or "slippies" or knives called out by that sort of name. They were either folding knives, or hunting knives. None of them were sure of the pattern unless it was something really common for the day like a stockman or the all inclusive "pen knife" which was to them pretty much anything under 3".

They were tools, and were treated as such. My Grandfather always carried a larger folder of some sort as did my Dad. They didn't use them to cut up their table food, do kitchen prep as they used silverware. They never felt that after their knives were dirty and a bit scratched that it was time to "send them back to the spa". They would have been bewildered at first, but then laughed themselves silly thinking of someone putting vinegar or mustard or anything else on a blade to make it look used. Theirs were used. And since my Grandfather never owned more than two or three folders at a time, they were all used constantly. Neither of my male predecessors would ever have thought of owning a knife they didn't use.

Both of them used theirs a lot at work; my Grandfather was strictly blue collar, and my Dad had spates of both blue and white collar work. But my Dad inherited the use (although no love for an unnecessarily expensive model) of an EDC from his Dad, but as with his Dad, saw them as tools and wouldn't buy anything more expensive than a bone handled CASE.

If my Grandfather or Father had a choice between stag and wood handles, they always took wood. They couldn't afford stag, and didn't see any reason to pay more for a knife because it was pretty. It was in your pocket where no one could see it anyway. My Dad upped the ante in his knife ownership when he was stationed in Germany in '52 and developed a real love for jigged bone after seeing Boker's. He never bought a wood handled knife after that.

i have all of my Dad's old knives now, and even with my gifts to him over the years he didn't have more than about 15 - 18 knives to his name. That's it. Yet he was never lacking in blades, and never went anywhere without one in his pocket. He admired a new knife when I bought one and loved to see it, but felt like since he had so many there was no reason to buy any more.

I bought him a couple of nicer Puma folders years ago, but never saw him use them. Having just cleaned out his house, I found them in perfect condition in his small knife box. I asked him why he didn't carry them, and he told me they were "too nice". He preferred a couple of his CASE knives to anything else and carried them as long as he could operate them. I get my love of old CASE knives from my Dad. To me, that makes them traditional.

Those old guys that used to use knives we call "traditionals" wouldn't recognize what many call traditionals. They never had super steels, couldn't trust stainless at that time, and wouldn't pay for a knife that had fossilized mammoth bone handles, polished kudu buck horn scales, etc. They were much more practical in their tastes and utility played a very large part of their knife choice.

What a difference a couple of generations make. I understand why people collect knives and actually appreciate the craftwork that goes into some of our knives today. But they are traditional in name only. Most are never meant for work, but are made to collect, and to allow us to hearken back to a more traditional time.

Nothing wrong with that, either.

Robert
 
midnight flyer said:
They would have been bewildered at first, but then laughed themselves silly thinking of someone putting vinegar or mustard or anything else on a blade to make it look used. Theirs were used.
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First, Robert, great post.

Secondly, one small point of clarification: There were guys back in the day who advocated putting a patina on a new knife. Usually something along the lines of the "stick 'er in a potato over night" method. My dad's dad was like this. Grandad spent the first 20-some years of his life in Savannah, Ga., and the rest in Miami, Fla., working hard and carrying a carbon steel knife the entire time. In those hot, coastal climates, rust prevention was important and a well patinaed knife is far less likely to rust.

But your point that this wasn't done to make the blades "look used" is spot-on and well taken.

-- Mark
 
As a beginner to the whole traditional knife pattern, I can see where a lot of you guys are coming from.

It is a whole different feel of knife and I can see why you don't need to spend very much money in order to have a quality knife, especially because part of the charm seems to be from the age and character these knives gain as you use and carry them. A great example of this would be Jackknife's stories, especially the ones about his father and scout leader, that ooze a certain charm and character that I don't think most of my modern knives would be able to replicate at all even through use.

I actually got into knives initially with tactical style blades because of some bad things happening around the college I attend, but I realized it was a fun and great hobby to get into, but my collection was initially all modern folders and tactical knives. I also preferred carrying as large a blade was allowed where I live, but as time went by I realized there was much less attention drawn to traditional knives, and that I didn't need a 3.5 inch knife to open everything.

I am the first in my family to really ever carry a knife around discounting my great-grandparents who were all farmers in Korea, so I never had an heirloom blade handed down to me by anyone, and as I carried a knife, I realized it would also be really nice if I could pass on my own knife to my future child, whenever that will happen :D.

To address the original question that I totally missed until now though :p, I think the reason why I started off with a more expensive blade was because I have been disappointed by cheap modern folders early on in my knife hobby. Now I realize that traditionals are a whole different game, and that affordability does not mean cheap or poorly made. Plus, since I've been using SAKs for a while now I'm not too worried about using a slipjoint safely.

BTW, thanks a lot LKJW for your advice on the Buck traditionals. I have a Buck Vantage Pro and really like it, but I've never actually talked to anyone who has used the Buck slipjoints. Now that I know they are affordable and quality with good people behind them, I know I can buy a knife for cheaper and still get some great use out of them.

Thanks for everyone who bothered to read my ramblings, hopefully it answers some of the questions posed earlier on.
 
Both of my Grandpas had maybe one slipjoint and one hunting(sheath)knife apiece.If they were alive and saw my collection now their eyes would bug out.
 
[ Quote LKJW; I was just wondeirng if any one else agrees with me. I own a stupid amount of knives, but most of them are used and most of them were cheap. I just feel weird reading these 'what should I buy, Case or GEC' threads when, if you really want a traditional knife, get a TL-29. Get an Old Timer off the bay. Jumping into the deep end just strikes me as, well, untraditional.

I don't mean to try and impose my beliefs on others, I was just wondering if any of y'all have these same thoughts. ]

I think your post reflects a lot of how I feel. Pretty good post too.

I know my own father thought I was nuts, not only for bothering to have the knives I did, but spending what I did on that first Randall. My father or grandfather never had but one 'pocket knife' as they called them, at one time. It seemed like once there was a knife in their pants pockets, no more need be thought or said on the subject. Even when given a knife as a birthday or other gift, the new knife was placed in inactive reserve in the sock drawer till the devil needed long johns.

But they were not outstanding in that respect. With the sole exception of Mr. Van, most men of that era just had the one pocket knife. It was not considered anything special, just that it was expected that a man had a pocket knife, a watch, a handkerchief. A pocket knife was a tool to these men in general. This is the only difference I think in my grandfather and father, they put a high value on the pocket knife they carried because it was a gift from a loved one. In my grandfathers case, it was his wife, my grandmother. In my fathers case, it was his mother when he was at the train station leaving home for the first time. Both men took above and beyond care of their pocket knife.

But both of them could not see spending much on a knife. To most men of that era, a knife was a tool that was expected to be use up. By nature of the beast, a knife is a disposable tool. Use it enough, and it gets dull. Sharpen it, and you remove some of the blade each time. Keep it up for enough years and it gets used down to a steel toothpick, and you go but another one. The idea of collecting knives just to have them, would have struck dad and granddad as ridiculous. To keep them in pristine condition as safe queens would be beyond belief to them. As much as dad valued his Case peanut that his mother gave him, he still carried it and used it gently from the time she gave it to him on the train platform, till he was an old man with arthritis and couldn't open it well. It was well worn down by then.

In the spirit of real traditional, a pocket knife is a very moderate priced tool. The old Schrade Old Timers to me are the ideal example of what a traditional knife is. Plain 1095 carbon steel, priced so any handyman, carpenter, store clerk, or other working man could afford to buy one on the spot with no agonizing where the money is coming from. The idea of a 100 dollar knife would have been an alien idea. As alien an idea as having a knife collection. They did not have the great amount of disposable income that young men today have. People lived more carefully with their expenditures back then vs today. There was no credit cards, and a man was expected to make his paycheck last until the next payday. Going out and buying more knives that he didn't need would have been looked on as crazy.

Times change, and people change as well. I look around at some of what's going on, and even I shake my head a bit. And I'm one of the afflicted.

I feel if a young guy wahts to try out a traditional knife, maybe he should try a TL-29 or a Buck 303 cadet. They would certainly be more in the spirit of the thing.

Carl.
 
My grandfather was a carpenter, and always had a pocket knife. He seemed to favor Imperial Schrades, though there are Vics, and others I've never heard of (Alaskan Trapper?). He used them all the time, and could always be found peeling an apple at the table with one.

He had a lot more than I realized. I'll dig through a toolbox and find one, another in the car kit, another couple in the dresser drawer...don't be fooled into thinking we're the first generation of collectors. I think too often on this forum we romanticize that generation, believing they had a disdain for anything modern. They liked stuff that worked, new or old.
 
I think that our predecessors would have bought quality knives, or at least the knives offered would have been of higher quality as I feel many would still have been handfinished to a degree. (And now I'm thinking about all those catalogs and how could they have been hand-finished...)

Anyways, I recently bought a Rough Rider scout model, it cost about $15 shipped all told, yes, the blades rub a little but it's a $9 knife. I recently paid almost $50 for a small stockman from a higher level manufacturer and guess what, the blades still rub. Doesn't bother me if I pay $9, bothers me a lot if I pay $50 before shipping and taxes. So, if I like a particular knife and pattern, I may pay a maker to do one for me knowing that if I pick the right maker it will be perfect, no rubs, etc. But I'm not going to pay top dollar (for me that's $40-$80) for a knife that I will begrudge paying the money for the quality.

So I guess I waffle. Low dollars, ignore the imperfections. Most were bought to try out a pattern anyways. I guess it comes down to you have to decide what quality you want and how much you're willing to pay for it.
 
You know, while many of our great-grandfathers and grandfathers and (in some cases) fathers would certainly have scoffed at our knife-knut ways, I bet a lot of them would also scoff at those of us who, in 2011, still carry carbon steel slipjoints.

How many of them -- if they were around today -- would opt to carry something stainless? How many would replace their simple two-blade penknife with a Victorinox? How many would swap their bone-handled scout knife for a Leatherman? How many would replace their Case folding hunter with a Spyderco?

God, this is all so complicated. :confused:

-- Mark ;)
 
It seems that you guys are assuming that everyone who carries or buys a slipjoint does so because it is traditional. That isn't necessarily true. In my case, I like all sorts of knives and I wanted an EDC that was different from my Sebenza or Military. Because of my white collar occupation I wanted a more polite, friendly looking knife. Slipjoints fit the bill perfectly.

From my previous experiences with buying knives I learned to buy quality. So when I went shopping for slipjoints I was disappointed with the knives I found. There were nothing other than inexpensive imports and Case knives. And I was really disappointed by the Case specimens I found. Overly thin blades (IMO), made from low end stainless. No thanks.

I've mentioned in the past that no one in my family carried slipjoints. Knives to them meant bolos and balisongs. So I wasn't raised with any sort of affection for Camillus, Case, or Schrade. I was a blank slate, so I was free to seek out knives that appealed to me. That meant knives with better steels, more beautiful handle materials, and superior craftsmanship. Unfortunately these knives aren't available at the local hardware store for $30.

We are different from previous generations in a lot of ways. We have a lot more disposable income. I don't know you about the rest of you guys, but I make more than my grandfathers ever did. And we spend it on many more things. We have hobbies, and we spend money on those hobbies. I can't remember any of my elders with hobbies other than reading or fishing. They just didn't have the money or the time.

Sometimes I think we overthink things and romanticize the past too much. More than anything, I believe that previous generations were more practical than ours. A man carried a knife because he needed a cutting tool. Ask yourself this, if you were to transport your grandfather as a young man of 25 or so to today, would he still choose to carry a slipjoint? Maybe, maybe not. But I think a significant number of them would choose a locking, flat ground Spyderco instead.

- Christian
 
I'm positive my grandfather would have loved a Leatherman. That man could repair anything with a bit of wood, duct tape, and a screw or two.
 
kamagong said:
Sometimes I think we overthink things and romanticize the past too much. More than anything, I believe that previous generations were more practical than ours. A man carried a knife because he needed a cutting tool. Ask yourself this, if you were to transport your grandfather as a young man of 25 or so to today, would he still choose to carry a slipjoint? Maybe, maybe not. But I think a significant number of them would choose a locking, flat ground Spyderco instead.

- Christian
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Every once in a while, someone writes something like that, and it really hits home. Well, done Christian. I think to me that is absolutely the truth. As a tradesman, I carry what will work the best during the day and don't care about the rest of the details.

Back in the early 70s until about 10 years ago, I carried large pocket folders while at work. But about 10 - 15 years ago I started carrying large lock blade folders with pocket clips and haven't looked back since.

Why? A RAT1 (nor their multitude of cousins) won't rust in my sweaty pocket. It is much easier to get out of my pocket for quick use over one of my old large stockmans. The blades are larger and sturdier than my old folders. And although I don't trust the locks on these knives completely, I do like them as a safety feature.

To drive your point home, I work with a guy off and on that is 74 years old. He was raised on a small farm and has been in construction since he was a kid. He carried a CASE medium stockman for years and years, and always tore them up. He won a nice liner locking folder at a contractor's dinner, and put it away. But when he "did in" another CASE, he started carrying that knife.

He loves it. He has been using it a few years now (I think it is an old stainless Benchmade with FRN handles) and absolutely loves it. "Can't tear that damn thing up" he will tell me with a chuckle. He likes the fact that he doesn't have to baby that knife. He really likes the fact that his arthritic hands don't have to struggle to get it out of his pocket. And when the black pocket clip gets scratched, he just takes a magic marker to it, and it's good as new.

Like my RAT, Blur, and a couple of CRKTs, he uses his with NO regard for the welfare of the knife, but only to get the job done. Personally, I clean my knives up regularly with charcoal lighter fluid or mineral spirits to get off butyl sealants, paint, tar, and all kinds of adhesives. I drag them across my 600g chef's rod after cleaning, spray them with lubricant and they are ready for work the next day.

Unlike him I do keep a small slipjoint like a peanut or pen in my pocket as well. Those get babied quite a bit, and I keep them really sharp. Hey... gotta dig those splinters out and cut cigars with something!

GREAT post, Christian.

Robert
 
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Like many I purchase knives based on quality and what I can afford. The knife may run me a few bucks or quite a bit more depending on a lot of things.

I do not see anything wrong with ordering a high dollar knife that will actually be worth more than you pay for it when it arrives at your door in some cases even if you decide to use and carry it. That seldom happens with inexpensive knives.

Buy what you like and enjoy and what your wallet allows and there will be little chance of regret.
 
Both my grandfather and father immigrated to this country decades ago. My grandfather was a bit of a knife knut but my dad was not. My grandfather carried SAKs (knockoffs mostly) and lockbacks. I'm sure my grandfather would be walking around with a 1 hand opener now if he was still around. He had his own farm and just used what worked. My dad came here as a teenager. He carried a Wenger and now carries a Vic Classic I gave him 2 years ago.

These were the knives I saw growing up. I had my own saks and my grandfather's last lockback (a Schrade LB5) before I bought my first American traditional but I had modern knives before that. It took a couple of years to work up to GEC or custom knives and I find I enjoy them more than some others. I don't think its wrong to jump in with a high dollar knife as a first choice but I can definitely see everyone's point of buying inexpensive knives first to see if you like the pattern.

Not sure if I really have a point with the above. I guess just buy what you like and what you can afford.
 
I often wonder just that. If our grandfathers and their fathers were so practical (as we like to see them)
WOULD they still carry a carbon slipjoint? Or something more modern. I actually see leatherman's being popular amongst the "greatest generation" if they were available and of course if the prices were reasonable for their respective times.

i dunno, it may be that they would in fact still choose to carry a carbon slipjoint due to size, thinness of blades and general ease of carry (Carl being a big proponent of this philosophy)

on the other hand, they may prefer the easier use of the one handed opening, the ease of clipping and unclipping the pocket clip, and apparently the improvement of stainless steels over the last 50-60 years compared to the original offerings...i dunno

but i love to think about this for some reason :D
 
Carrying a knife is traditional. The choice of knife is up for debate.

- Christian
 
There is no question that the amount of money I've spent on knives would be thought silly by my grandfather.

BUT . . . some of the most traditional things in America are the freedom to choose and letting the other guy do his own thing (within the law).
He would probably have kept his thoughts to himself, instead of telling me how silly I was. We were raised to, "If you don't have anything good to say, say nothing at all."
 
I can guarantee if my mom's dad were alive today and decided to start carrying a folder, it'd be a one-hand opener. He lost his left arm in WWII. ;-)

-- Mark
 
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