Treating carbon steel Damascus after etching .

Treating carbon steel Damascus after etching

  • Javanne Dempsy

    Votes: 1 50.0%
  • Salem Strabe

    Votes: 2 100.0%

  • Total voters
    2
Joined
Sep 10, 2000
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I'm not satisfied with my treatments on carbon steal Damascus after heat treat. I see rust setting in and wonder what steps to take to show the pattern but avoid this. I sure will appreciate your help with what works for you.
Frank.
 
Boiling in a baking soda solution seems to 'set' the etching. Then treating with rust preventing wax, grease or oil will help
 
As a part of the above, you must remove all water and moisture between the boiling to neutralize and the oiling to shield from new moisture. After boiling in a mild basic solution ( 1 Tbsp. baking soda in the pot of water), dry well. then bake at 250F for an hour. Immediately oil heavily while still hot. Leave the blade coated with excess oil as it returns to ambient. This will draw the oil into the cracks and crevices where the rust spots usually show up later on. Wipe off excess oil after a few hours and the blade should be completely water free.
 
Frank, are we to vote in the poll based on physical attraction or some other criteria? :D
 
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Don't vote for that Dempsey fellow, all of his facts are alternative! As for me, my emails are squeaky clean, not to worry...

As for damascus, the coffee etch works but I prefer a deep etch and parkerizing for durability.

You want to make sure your steel is fully neutralized after etch, if you're seeing rust creep up a lot.

Parkerizing fills the low spots with hard, durable manganese phosphate that holds oil very well. Let me know if you'd like me to elaborate on the process.
 
I'd be interested in hearing more. I know a bit about parkerizing, but I'm sure there are some knife specific aspects.

On a side note, I seem to recall seeing hot blued Damascus somewhere. Any thoughts on that process?
 
Frank
after the etching/nuetralized process coat it really heavy with EEZOX . i have damascus i made over 10 years ago treated this way with no rust.
 
Salem Straub Salem Straub

I've been meaning to ask you in regards to damascus. My only experience completely parkerizing blades/parts that I've blasted with one grit or another, which works very well and gives a nice finish. But I've never tried parkerizing something that was hand sanded or polished. I'm wondering if you etch first to get some level topography, then park? And what finish you were going into the parkerizing with.

I've been meaning to try parking a 600 grit blade but just haven't had time.
 
Ok, parkerizing...
First etch blade to a deep topography in ferric chloride. Neutralize with Windex etc., then wet sand with water to shine the tops up using 2000 paper. When tops are shiny, put into park bath.
The bath should be preheated to 190f. I put the blade in wet all over from sanding, then hang it in the bath for about 10 min. or until the bubbling has subsided. Pull it out, it dries from its own heat.
After this, wet sand again to get the highs shiny. Wet sanding helps to leave the lows black, although at this point they will be quite durable. Still, for bold patterns with large dark areas, always better safe then sorry.
After contrast is achieved, warm blade to 100f or so and rub with oil. Parkerizing holds the oil on the surface, and this makes the phosphate coating even darker. You can buff a little after this, for a brilliant shine to the tops if you wish.
I use Lauer manganese phosphate parkerizing concentrate from Midway Supply, mixed to the strength recommended on the jug. The first time using it, after mixing with distilled water, it is necessary to activate it by heating it and putting a wad of degreased steel wool in for 30 minutes. The tank is normally stainless steel, although I use heavy wall mild steel.
 
Salem you don't go from the park to boiling water? When we did gun barrels we had 3 containers. One was hot water with TSP and then the park solution and then clean boiling water. We left it in the boiling water for a little bit. When we try's not using the water the hot barrel would instantly dry the park solution and create white patches.
 
I have not had that issue. I rinse in cold water and then when dry I oil it.
 
we where using zink phosphate maybe that's the difference. It was more of a gray not black and if you used it with cosmoline it would go that old school army green common on old guns.
 
Some of the problem I see is created when the knife is used. I don't believe the drying and oiling won't continue to protect the metal. Would the parkerizing solve this problem? I make a lot of folders for hunting use and have been going more and more with the stainless Damascus bars. I think this is an easy way out that does also in the future protect the owner. Fortunately, there are now many stainless steels for knives that do a super job. Frank
 
Frank, parkerizing creates a phosphate layer that's more passive but it also holds oil. It's far more corrosion resistant than a ferric etch.
 
Don't vote for that Dempsey fellow, all of his facts are alternative! As for me, my emails are squeaky clean, not to worry...

As for damascus, the coffee etch works but I prefer a deep etch and parkerizing for durability.

You want to make sure your steel is fully neutralized after etch, if you're seeing rust creep up a lot.

Parkerizing fills the low spots with hard, durable manganese phosphate that holds oil very well. Let me know if you'd like me to elaborate on the process.


LOL WTF?

At least both our names are mis-spelled.


Plenty of good info here. Yes, boiling in water with baking soda or even distilled water will neutralize completely, and help "set" the etch. I've never personally found it necessary to bake the parts for an hour, blowing them off with compressed air or heating them for a min with a heat gun has always been effective for me. Oil, ren wax, or boeshield afterwards, depending on where I'm at with the knife. Oil is a much more "temporary" solution for me.


As far as different finishes, Parking, Hot Bluing, etc all have their places, but they all look different than a ferric etch. With a good finish, appropriately deep ferric etch (I've seen too many that are much too deep, the texture becomes distracting), with the right finish etch and polish, is classic, and still my favorite especially for certain patterns. The coffee trick is a technique that for me, is sometimes effective, sometimes not. Depends on the pattern quite a bit. Really homogeneous, symmetrical, or evenly distributed patterns, are pretty easy, because you've got lots of bright steel (highs) to ride on when you do the final etch and finish rub, but asymmetrical patterns, like the ones I do primarily, with big swathes of bright or dark steel, can be much trickier to finish. The oxides on the dark steel are pretty fragile at first, so in the case of some of these patterns you need to get a near perfect finish before the final etch, and then find the sweet spot where you can get the blacks back to the right black, without affecting the silvers. Sometimes coffee can make this happen, just as often, it'll get the black the right black just as the silvers go a weird bronze color, and the only thing I've figured out to do, is step back with paper a bit, and repeat.

All the park or hot blued finishes I've seen just have a different color to them though, that that deep black you can get with ferric when things go perfect. I did have a manganese park kit I was planning to try, but I let someone borrow it and never got it back. However most of the parking I've seen leaves a finish I can readily identify as phosphated, which is in fact, it's original intention, and purpose, to leave a microtextured finish to hold oil.
 
Some of the problem I see is created when the knife is used. I don't believe the drying and oiling won't continue to protect the metal. Would the parkerizing solve this problem? I make a lot of folders for hunting use and have been going more and more with the stainless Damascus bars. I think this is an easy way out that does also in the future protect the owner. Fortunately, there are now many stainless steels for knives that do a super job. Frank

Yeah, you've gotta treat carbon damascus like mono-carbon, although in my experience when hardened, and etched, and finished properly, good quality carbon damascus is much more stain resistant than mono carbon that doesn't have some sort of secondary finish, like bluing or an etched finish of some type also.

My main concern personally with most of the stainless damascus, is performance though. Even as someone who makes it as a part of my business, I haven't used it much in my knives, simply because, unless it's constructed with a continuous core of some cutlery grade stainless, I'm not happy with the performance. The issue of course lies in the fact that most stainless damascus is currently being produced with a mix of hardening and non-hardening steels. If it's constructed with a solid core that's fine, although of course that alters the pattern.

Now, there are plenty that will say that the performance is great, but I'll speculate that most have skin in the game, I do also, but I'm willing to call it honestly. Of course, there are plenty out there that are happy with the performance of mono AEB-L without cryo also, but I'm not.

For me, the only way I'm happy with the performance of stainless damascus for blades at the moment, if one of the alloys is a non-hardenable one, is with a solid core construction, pretty tight control setup for HT, and LN cryo, beyond that I think there are still plenty of procedural details to get even better results, but without being too specific, I think the above is the bare minimum.

The advantage to me of AEB-L is that when it's treated correctly, it's like good high carbon steel in performance, but stainless. However, there's lots of room for it to fall short, outside of that.
 
I apologize for the incorrect name spelling. I am missing something here about the coffee technique . Would you please explain what that is about?
Frank
 
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