Triggernometry. The center mass 'myth'?

evltcat said:
Couldn't agree more, and will add "With a half second pause, dropping back to center mass target to assess the need to repeat the "Mozambique" drill with my 1911".
My dad always said "Don't assume because you shot the critter it's dead!" Advice to stay alive by! ;)
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Well said!:thumbup:
 
I think what is interesting about the article is that we hear so many folks on the various forums that feel that their given choice of caliber and bullet is nothing short of a nuclear death ray. The author does a good job of illustrating the faults in that mindset.

As much as anything I think the article supports the notion that you should carry the gun you shoot best. And not to be surprised if one shot fails to stop the threat... or even two shots... or three. The author never even mentioned zombies, which we all know are tougher than elephants AND cape buffalo! :eek:

The Mozambique drill is a good drill to practice. Also, if you didn't check on the video in the link... here it is. The author is a pretty darn good shot.

[video=youtube;lXk2WmBGY_M]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXk2WmBGY_M&feature=player_embedded[/video]


And for the record Andy... I'd love to see video of 375 Holland and Holland versus the bunny. :thumbup: That would be epic!

.
 
Garth Reckner said:
Really good article. Thanks for sharing. As for me I have been training for "two to the chest, one to the head, repeat". Hopefully I never need to use it.

Garth
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^^^ This. USAF small arms (M9) training (yes, I realize that is an oxy-moron) has transitioned from strictly center mass (with a few head shots thrown in) to this a while back. Now if they'd just let us carry a loaded gun...

Lennox said:
If the 50 doesn't work you can always go get one of these :D

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Soooooo, IWB carry then? :D
 
While I have much respect for Jim Higginbotham et all, consider the "zipper" approach. Shoot center-mass or thereabouts, then continue to rapid-fire until the threat stops, hitting higher each shot. Recoil and muzzle-flip help this along.
 
I never ever plan to shoot just once in a gun fight. I plan to shoot until the target is no longer a threat. If COM is not working ill switch to the T zone. If that doesn't work I'll switch to silver bullets...
I have issue with some of the authors facts but they really don't make a differnce in his point. Handguns are weak. Shoot until the threat stops. If COM doesn't work switch up quick. 9mm, 40, 45 all about the same. Modern hollow points have around a 40-50% one shot stop. But if it takes more than one shot it seems to take 4 plus to end it. So if I start with 4 I should be good right?

True story, my friend was driving home and saw some people he thought he new broke down. Pulled over to help and was shot thru the window of his truck 3 times, in the head and upper body with a 9 mm loaded with Winchester hollow points. The window was down. He drove him self to the hospital. Perfectly fine today.
 
Andy the Aussie said:
Yes...centre mass theory = biggest target, I am not sure where the argument about why we shoot "centre mass" got to be about this being the most effective location to hit, as opposed to the place we CAN hit when the adrenaline dump has kicked in and our fine motor skills have deteriorated and we are trying desperately not to evacuate out bowls there and then…. ;) If one needs to put a people out for the count ASAP it is the brain steam that needs to be hit.

Yes…indeed Cape Buffalo are apparently harder to put on the ground than Elephant, and a damn sight more ornery when riled. The down side to a large calibre double rifle is that there are very few folks who shoot them well, many think there are however the done thing for Africa. As some may recall I am off there next year and talking to my mates here still in the PH game, the vast majority of guides breath a sigh of relief when the client arrives with about anything other than a double rifle. Power certainly does not make up for shot placement. One of the more famous European professional elephant cullers relied upon a 6.5x55 as it has great penetration and he was able to put the bullet just where he wanted them. Out of interest, I am taking my 40 year old .375H&H (got it in ’83 myself) as I have spent enough time hunting rabbits with it to know that I am able to hit small targets with it over and over.
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Well said Andy!!! I have always been one to use as my rule it's not just cntr mass, but cntr mass of the target that is presented. If all that is there is a pie plate (say 8-10"'s worth), then know how to use the firearm. Shoot offen and shoot a lot!!! I prefer the method of Target of Oppurtunity.
 
Andy the Aussie said:
Yes...centre mass theory = biggest target, I am not sure where the argument about why we shoot "centre mass" got to be about this being the most effective location to hit, as opposed to the place we CAN hit when the adrenaline dump has kicked in and our fine motor skills have deteriorated and we are trying desperately not to evacuate out bowls there and then…. ;) If one needs to put a people out for the count ASAP it is the brain steam that needs to be hit.

Yes…indeed Cape Buffalo are apparently harder to put on the ground than Elephant, and a damn sight more ornery when riled. The down side to a large calibre double rifle is that there are very few folks who shoot them well, many think there are however the done thing for Africa. As some may recall I am off there next year and talking to my mates here still in the PH game, the vast majority of guides breath a sigh of relief when the client arrives with about anything other than a double rifle. Power certainly does not make up for shot placement. One of the more famous European professional elephant cullers relied upon a 6.5x55 as it has great penetration and he was able to put the bullet just where he wanted them. Out of interest, I am taking my 40 year old .375H&H (got it in ’83 myself) as I have spent enough time hunting rabbits with it to know that I am able to hit small targets with it over and over.
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Apricot shot.
 
I've been unimpressed with 9mm performance for years, if a racoon can take a middle of the chest hit at 5 ft with a silver tip hollow point and run off I'm not interested in using it on larger targets. I did a little goofy experimentation with my daughter for fun, we filled coconuts with red jello and let it set up overnight. Then shot with several different rounds all hornady zmax, in 9mm, 45, 5.56, and 7.62 the results were interesting and very messy.
[video=youtube;YaorR-joLI4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaorR-joLI4[/video]

and later with a 10mm hydro shock i think, I didn't bother to fill it with jello that time
[video=youtube;YGkgiY_fWGs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGkgiY_fWGs[/video]
 
Unfortunately, stopping a threat comes down to 2 options: Bleeding out, or incapacitating the Central Nervous System. Bleeding out takes time, almost anywhere the threat is hit. So that just leaves incapacitating the Central Nervous System. This means shot placement is more important than the size of the hole.

Bottom Line: Choose a reliable weapon and become as proficient as you can with it. Fast, accurate, follow up shots are beneficial.
 
cricketdave said:
I've been unimpressed with 9mm performance for years, if a racoon can take a middle of the chest hit at 5 ft with a silver tip hollow point and run off I'm not interested in using it on larger targets. I did a little goofy experimentation with my daughter for fun, we filled coconuts with red jello and let it set up overnight. Then shot with several different rounds all hornady zmax, in 9mm, 45, 5.56, and 7.62 the results were interesting and very messy.
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I think what you have to take away from your experience with 9mm is that the needs of a hunter and survivor are very different typically despite having some similarities. You had the luxury of taking your time on the raccoon and just shooting once. In a self defense scenario, you will (hopefully) be moving off the line of attack while drawing and placing fast, accurate fire on your target. One shot stops are myth, and you should always assume you will need much more than one shot to stop an attack.

This is where the 9mm shines due to it's high magazine capacity and ease of follow up shots. While a 9mm is not a great choice for hunting it still remains one of the most popular pistol cartridge in the world (if not the most). This is no doubt because of it's long history of effectiveness in combat, which is essentially what you are training for in self defense (combatives).

You always hear people poo-pooing 9mm on the internet, saying how weak it is and such. I always have to point this out, none of those have yet volunteered to be shot with 9mm. The 9mm gives several advantages such as low recoil, high accuracy, high capacity, rapid follow up shots, etc. Terminal performance is only one aspect to be considered in this equation for choosing a service/SD weapon.

Being that CNS hits are the only reliable mechanism for incapacitation, it matters not what projectile is used so long as it penetrates the armored structures that contain the CNS (such as bones and skull) and is allowed to reach the CNS. The only reservation I have about 9mm is that FMJ is unlikely to penetrate the skull due to the shape of the standard projectile. This is my only requirement in a pistol cartridge along with being reliable.

For this matter, I can't help but think that the 357 SIG might be a real sleeper in all this. Because of it's medium velocity, it should beat most common pistol calibers in penetration and trajectory downrange. Due to it's bottlenecked casing design, it is also extremely reliable in function feeding into the chamber. Best yet, due to the lighter weight projectiles you get softer recoil and less carry weight vs. large bore calibers. Pure win, If you've got a pistol chambered in .40 S&W, I'd highly recommend getting a conversion barrel to try .357 SIG for yourself.
 
Andy the Aussie said:
Out of interest, I am taking my 40 year old .375H&H (got it in ’83 myself) as I have spent enough time hunting rabbits with it to know that I am able to hit small targets with it over and over.
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You hunt rabbits with your .375, Andy? Is there anything left of them...... ;)

I've actually read of a lot of elephant hunters using .308 for the brain shot, it's supposed to work really well for this apparently.
 
Back in the mid 80's, I picked up a copy of Combat Handguns Magazine. It was the one with the photo of the "Subway Vigilante's" pistol on the cover. I don't remember if it was an article or one of the monthly columns in that issue, but this sentence jumped out at me...

"The 5/50 rule. A handgun is 50% effective in 5 seconds."

Plan accordingly...

YMMV. My $0.02.

Fred
 
aaaa_cccc said:
You hunt rabbits with your .375, Andy? Is there anything left of them...... ;)

I've actually read of a lot of elephant hunters using .308 for the brain shot, it's supposed to work really well for this apparently.
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.... not much bunny left but it is bloody good practise walking onto a warren and dealing with Mr Bunny as a lowers his head for the charge ... small target moving at some pace with unpredicable lines, most helpful in improving one's shooting skills... ;) :D

Most of the Elephant culling in SA in the 80s was done with FAL rifles, not saying I thin it is a great thing or even a good idea, certainly worked though. Out here the Asiatic Buffalo cull was all done with 7.62 (either M14s or SLRs) from helicopters.
 
A powerful argument for SHOT PLACEMENT.
That said, 00 Buck is hard to argue with, regardless of where it hits....
 
cricketdave said:
I've been unimpressed with 9mm performance for years, if a racoon can take a middle of the chest hit at 5 ft with a silver tip hollow point and run off I'm not interested in using it on larger targets. I did a little goofy experimentation with my daughter for fun, we filled coconuts with red jello and let it set up overnight. Then shot with several different rounds all hornady zmax, in 9mm, 45, 5.56, and 7.62 the results were interesting and very messy.
[video=youtube;YaorR-joLI4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaorR-joLI4[/video]

and later with a 10mm hydro shock i think, I didn't bother to fill it with jello that time
[video=youtube;YGkgiY_fWGs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGkgiY_fWGs[/video]
Click to expand...

I carry Federal HSTs in my 9mm
 
Win 127 gr. +p+ in my 9mm. It's always interesting to me how many guys respect the .357 magnum, but not the 9mm.

With a hot-loaded 9mm, the difference is minimal. Not a caliber wars deal, I own and carry 9, .45, 10mm. I just love the rapid and controlled follow-up shots from a 9.
 
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