Troubling customers

[Atlas Knife Company]

A customer purchased a burner from me, and now he wishes to return it. He doesn't claim that it doesn't work, or that he's simply having buyers remorse, or even that he just doesn't want it anymore, but that it doesn't produce as many BTU as claimed. He goes so far as to claim that he's tested the BTU output of the burner. I really don't have any problem giving a refund if the item is returned, but his accusation that the BTU output is inaccurate is upsetting. I used the BTU calculator from Ron Reil's page to determine the output, and several have agreed that it's accurate, .042" orifice at 20 PSI yields ~104K BTU. We used a relatively conservative 0.75 for the discharge coefficient.

So, here's my question, is there a device that could measure the BTU in a forge, or is he likely just making it up? I just can't see directly measuring the BTU output without capturing all the heat lost from the forge, which would measure the forge's efficiency and not the burner itself.

I fully expect that eBay will force me to allow him to return it, but I want to make sure my BTU calculations aren't that far off.

"Sorry there was a Miss type im only getting 87655 out of this burner .I have thermo testers and others way of figuring out how hot something get it not rocket science so I'm telling you this isn't putting out 100000 BTUs not my first burner I build forges for a living so I'm not a amateur"

 

[Fish30114]

Mr.Atlas, first off as a customer, I always felt I was treated first class by you and I felt that your knowledge and real world experience with the forges you make made the difference in why I purchased from you. In my background in Mfg. I learned the importance of 3rd party credibility for products--especially for technical specifics--we frequently submitted products to UL for testing/approval and even certification in some instances, perhaps there is a testing company that could give you such info for your products, I think that would give you the concrete information in the best format for you to utilize to you and your companies benefit.

I am confident that you can handle the customer, you're common sense no BS approach should make this fella go away or at least bring this interaction to a conclusion for you.
Best of luck--Don

 

[TonyRV2]

I found an online BTU calculator here: http://ronreil.abana.org/design2.shtml which agreed with your calculation, about 104,000 BTU. This number, however refers to the BTU output of the heat source, and not the actual BTU's present within the forge. Your customer claims he's used a "thermo tester".... These are normally referred to as thermometers, lol. He probably used an infrared no-contact thermometer to measure around the inside of the forge....just a guess. But I agree, that without a totally enclosed and controlled environment it would be near impossible for him to accurately determine the BTU output of the system which is no doubt less than 104,000 BTU due to efficiency, losses, etc. It may very well be that the source puts out 104,000 BTU, yet the forge itself may only be 85% efficient which would bring the BTU of the forge into the 85,000 range....I don't know. I'm an electrical/automation engineer by trade and have seen this kind of confusion many times before. For instance, amplifiers that are rated at 100 Watts may be 100W at the input and only 90W at the output. Motors of a certain HP are also a classic example. Is it input HP or HP at the shaft....you get my drift I'm sure. Personally, as a business person, I would apologize to the guy for his troubles, tell him that you'll check the forge out upon its return, refund his money, and maybe salvage a future relationship. It sucks, but I think its the right thing to do. Besides, I'm sure you'll be able to find someone else that would gladly purchase that forge. Maybe me!

 

[Atlas Knife Company]

OK, good point. Does anyone know of a company that could test the actual BTU output of a burner? I was told by an ABS Mastersmith that my math was good and that the real world results seem to correspond, but I'm not opposed to paying the money to get an exact measurement.

 

[12345678910]

s not my first burner I build forges for a living so I'm not a amateur"

I wouldn't lose too much sleep over it.

I think that quote is the key


He bought it to eyeball and copy it.

Big balls to return it though.

 

[HSC ///]

Personally, as a business person, I would apologize to the guy for his troubles, tell him that you'll check the forge out upon its return, refund his money, and maybe salvage a future relationship. It sucks, but I think its the right thing to do. Besides, I'm sure you'll be able to find someone else that would gladly purchase that forge. Maybe me!

this is what I would do.
otherwise sounds like a no win situation

 

[Stumps]

Personally, as a business person, I would apologize to the guy for his troubles, tell him that you'll check the forge out upon its return, refund his money, and maybe salvage a future relationship. It sucks, but I think its the right thing to do.

I agree with most of this.
Apologize, have him return the forge, refund his money and put him on your "no buy, no bid" list and poof....he's gone for ever.
You will never have to waste time with him again.

He bought it to eyeball and copy it.

Big balls to return it though.

I agree with all of this.

 

[TonyRV2]

I wouldn't lose too much sleep over it.

I think that quote is the key


He bought it to eyeball and copy it.

Big balls to return it though.

I also thought this statement was telling. But I think you may have nailed it down.

 

[pwheeler]

If you end up with a lightly used forge for sale, let me know.

 

[Atlas Knife Company]

Nah, it's just the burner and not the whole forge. My last response to him has drawn apologies from him, to which I responded that I was happy to offer a refund for a defective or even unwanted product, but when he claimed it was "not as described or pictured" I was required to respond in a certain way, or change all my marketing. The general lack of punctuation made his communication very difficult to interpret, but the "know-it-all" tones are now gone from his e-mails and I think we're working things out.

Yeah, I figure he wanted to make a copy. I also figured it took a big pair of brass ones to return it.

Still, I would like to find someone to certify the BTU output.

 

[Alpha Knife Supply]

Ask how he arrived at his conclusions. If his testing or calculations are wrong or flawed, dispute his results.

Based on his comments, I think he may be a competitor. Are you selling the forges full time? If yes, vigorously defend yourself, your company and your performance claims. As a full time business you cannot afford to have a competitor spreading false rumors. If you are working as a hobbiest, decide how much effort you want to expend to defending yourself.

Either way, I would refund his money after receiving the returned forge.

Chuck

 

[Fish30114]

Hey Mr. Atlas, we used Intertek for some testing--heat levels and performance of battery packs for emergency lighting customers, maybe their worth giving a shout to: http://www.intertek.com/analytical-laboratories/thermal-analysis/
This is another firm I found with a quick Google: http://www.concosystems.com/services/nondestructive-testing They sound interesting, maybe worth an e-mail or phone call.
The outfit we used a lot is the ubiquitous UL: https://search.yahoo.com/search;_yl...themal+output&fr2=sb-top-search&fr=ymyy-t-999 or
http://www.ul.com/ I think they could give you anything you wanted--I will tell you that for some of the testing we did when I was with SANYO it was quite expensive--it was very detailed and long time frame testing we required though, if I was trying to figure out what I produced had, I will tell you that they are a great way to go.

Here is a section I saw on their website that might point you in a direction: http://services.ul.com/service/marketing-claim-verification/

Best of luck to you--Don

 

[Greenberg Woods]

I had a similar situation, and Im still not sure if I handled it correctly or not.

A little while ago, I got a small log of Brazilian Kingwood. I was ABSOLUTELY positive as to the species. I did florescence tests, pore examination, and even sent a chunk to the USFS and they told me it was Dalbergia cearensis. Brazillian Kingwood.

A guy bought a chunk "not even quite sure how he found me, he sent me an email" and a few days later, paypal said the payment was being contested. I asked what had happened, and he told me I had sent him Cocobolo and that I was trying to rip him off.

I told him it absolutely was Kingwood, but if he didnt want it he could ship it back and I could refund him. I used a piece from the log to send him photos of comparisons of pore sizes, told him to sand it and smell it to see it really was kingwood, he insisted it was Cocobolo.

He said I should send him a piece of "real" kingwood and then he would return my "cocobolo." once he was satisfied it was "real" I told him I would replace or refund him if he shipped back the block, and he told me in extra colorful language where I should put my blocks. Eventually paypal did give me back my $50. It was not a fun experience.

 

[Atlas Knife Company]

Ahhh, and a new e-mail response from him. Turns out I sent him a replacement regulator a couple weeks ago, but he hadn't yet installed it. He installed it today and it made a huge difference, and he closed the complaint with eBay. He now claims he's thrilled with the burner. Though, I'm still not sure how he could have possibly measured the burner as 12% lower than expected. Not sure that I could notice 12% lower output.

 

[redeagle66]

Some people know what they know, regardless of facts, formulas or science. If he is sure it was 12% lower, its not worth your time or stress convincing him otherwise. Particularly if you suspect he is just trying to copy the burner for his own use. Your forge and burners have a good reputation. It seems you resolved the issue, but I agree with the previous business advice posted to apologize, refund, blacklist the guy and move on to positive activities.

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

Ahhh, and a new e-mail response from him. Turns out I sent him a replacement regulator a couple weeks ago, but he hadn't yet installed it. He installed it today and it made a huge difference, and he closed the complaint with eBay. He now claims he's thrilled with the burner. Though, I'm still not sure how he could have possibly measured the burner as 12% lower than expected. Not sure that I could notice 12% lower output.

I sat back and read this thread, but was willing to bet the problem was the burner not running full blast on his forge. His claim about the "output" made me think it wasn't getting hot enough.

 

[Atlas Knife Company]

So we pretty much all agree, other than doing the math, there's no real way/reason to measure the BTU output without regard to the relative efficiency of the forge?

 

[wdtorque]

This is from my homemade paint can forge with your burner. Dozier


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Kentucky]

Glad it worked out for ya'..Dealing with ebay can be a big pain sometimes..They will always side with the byer, regardless of fault..Paypal will almost always refund their money pretty much regardless of fault. I understand it to a point but some unscrupulous buyers will use this knowledge and/or hold your feedback hostage to ttry and get what they want..Not many but a few will. That said most are good people but Ive found it best over the years to pretty much offer a no questions asked return policy..99.9% of the time you will never need it. Its generally easier to just get your item back and give a refund because they will end up getting it anyway as soon as they return it with proof of delivery.

 

[ron_m80]

So we pretty much all agree, other than doing the math, there's no real way/reason to measure the BTU output without regard to the relative efficiency of the forge?

The burned output will have to measured inside the forge. Its the only way output will matter and account for the mechanical losses.

I am pretty sure there is a meter for it somewhere. But the cheapest and easiest way might be to monitor the temp rise of a material and using its "specific heat" to determine the output.