trying 1084

v-6

v-6

Joined
Nov 24, 2007
Messages
952
New to 1084 and i need to know how to heat treat , soak time, and temper temp
any help
thanks vern :o
 
Silver_Pilate helped me out on the HT on my knife (actually it's not mine ;)). Anyway you don't need to soak. Bring steel up to 1475-1500 and then quench in 140 degree Parks 50 (in my case).
 
Vern,
Now I know you've read this at least a dozen times, but here it is again::D

Normalize - 1600F and air cool
Anneal - 1500F and cool as slow as possible (50F/hr)
Austenitize - 1500F, only soak as long as needed to assure even and through heating (1-2 min)
Quench - Fast oil , ( brine and water are OK, but have more risk)
Temper - 500F ,two hours, twice. Rc 59-60. For kitchen blades 450F is good for Rc60-61.

Stacy
 
One advantage of 1084 is that as a eutectoid steel it doesn't really need soak time as Stacy mentions.
 
I love these threads. You all have so much knowlege... would be nice if there was a HT subforum to have a handy repository of this stuff....

-Mark
 
Hey, how is that knife coming along, Ed?

+1 on the heat treating forum or knowledge depository.

--nathan
 
Tommegow said:
Heat Treating for Dummies
By Mete,Cashen & Apelt
:thumbup:
Click to expand...

these are the ones that know allot about it .
that way if it is all in one spot they could be making knives instead of allways telling dummies over and over like me.
vern
 
V-6 don't feel like the lone dummy here by any means. Some of us dummies are not speaking out real loud if you know what I mean.
 
Several ways to deal with saving the information you see when reading the threads here:
1) Write it down in a bound notebook dedicated to heat treating. The old fashioned way.
2) Cut and paste a special post into a Word file and save it on your computer or print it out.
3) Bookmark the important threads and save them with a title like "Simple 1084 HT" or whatever.

The important part is, read the threads even when it may not be a topic of importance to you at the moment. If it's stuff that can expand your knowledge base, save it somehow.
 
Yeah, I make note of any useful info I find out there and save a copy. This way if I'm ever trying to do something I don't have to rely on it still existing on the internet.

I also use google to search bladeforums when I'm trying to remember something from the past or to find some new info. Searching out that info ahead of time will save a lot of people a lot of trouble, especially for the threads that get a series of questions asked after each answer.
 
A short course on tempering:

You may notice that I often quote higher tempering temps than the usual, "375-400F", stated by many others. In years past, I quoted lower temps. I have done the research and determined that it is counterintuitive to go low for a sharper blade. Sharpness has little to do with hardness, but toughness has a lot to do with edge durability.

The purpose of the temper cycle is to reduce the unstable and overly brittle martensite to a more stable mix of structures. It also is to convert any unconverted Austenite to Martensite. These conversion come at the cost of a small amount of hardness, but yield an increase in toughness, and a reduction in brittleness.

Using 1084 as an example:
As quenched the steel will be Rc64....but is quite brittle.
Tempered at 300F it is Rc 63....and still pretty brittle
Tempered at 400F it is Rc 61-62... and less brittle, but not a huge amount tougher.
Tempered at 450F it is Rc 60-61 and getting a lot tougher
Tempered at 500F it is Rc59-60 and the toughness is rising still.
Tempered at 600F the Rc is 57-58 and it is spring tough.

Now, I don't know about you, but a RC 57-58 knife will get real sharp in my shop. The edge will hold pretty well, and the edge will take a lot of abuse before damage.
For a kitchen blade, which should receive much less edge abuse, is desirable to have a harderer and longer lasting edge,Rc 60-61 will make a top grade chef's blade.

The reason to temper at 400F( or lower) is not really defendable. 500F will get the blade within two Rockwell points of that, again, at the gain of a much tougher blade.


Now, as to time and repition:
The temper cycle is a function of time and temperature. Temperature has a much greater effect than the time, but there needs to be enough time for the conversions to happen. Some of these conversions take an hour or more. So, tempering for two hours is a safe time to use as a standard.
Running a flame across the blade and getting the spine to turn blue ( all done in 15-20 seconds) may well drop the hardness, and it will do some tempering, but it will not replace a proper temper cycle. It takes time to do somethings, and tempering is one of them.

Why repeat the temper if two hours is enough to make the conversions?
The retained austenite that is converting to martensite does not finish the conversion until it gets down to room temperature (actually by the time it gets below 200F is pretty much done). Then it is untempered martensite. It now needs another temper to temper it. On complex stainless steel with high allow contents, it may take three tempers to clear out all the unconverted austenite and temper it.

So a good procedure to follow is to temper on the higher numbers,two hours ,twice. It will work with lower temps and shorted temper cycles....but not as well.

Stacy
 
Stacy how will those numbers apply to Aldo's 1084FG? Will the addition of the extra elements cause much of a change?
 
Aldo's formulation has some alloy ingredients to refine the grain. They will not affect the final hardness much. His steel has a higher carbon content, which will be reduced by de-carburization as the steel is forged, so this will yield a slightly harder blade. The end results of using Aldo's steel should be be tougher blade due to the finer grain, and a slightly longer holding ability, due to the final carbon content being closer to .84%.The tempering results should be nearly the same to anyone but a laboratory.

All the above applies to a blade forged in proper conditions and heat treated fully (normalization with grain refinement, proper temps, etc.). Aldo's steel won't make a great blade by itself....but it will tell you exactly what you have to work with, and allow you to control the process as much as possible. If you are a new smith,simple shop, and have little fancy equipment, his steel will give you one of the best platforms to jump in from. It is about as fool proof as any forging steel can be.
Stacy
 
Please forgive the request.....but could you provide Aldo's contact information, I would like to forge a blade soon and you sold me on his stuff!!! Thanks...

Brad
 
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