Tube furnace

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Jun 9, 2015
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Well I found and I watched this video clip on You tube , this guy is genius ......:thumbsup: Forced me to do some research about this kind of furnace .What I found so far tell me that this is prefect HT furnace for me .One or maybe two blade can be HT at once but that is all I need .To build this thing is very easy and cheap ....Plus can be done even with inert atmosfere or vacuum.
Just look at this data ..............
G1kGG58.jpg

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What do you think ? It can t be simple then this to build Ht oven for us who work on one knife at time ?
 
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I can see big advantages with that design
Build wise so much easier and safer to use with the elements where they are
Temp didn't drop when he opened it either
 
Go ahead and build one and show us the photos after you are done.
Of course that I will show photos . I will build two of them .First one for carbon steel and second one for stainless steel .I will wait little and use this one with ceramic tube and if that tube can withstand stainless temp ....if not I will buy special ceramic tube for that purpose .They are not expensive ,they are around 100-150 $ in Dia. and length I need . First working day of new year I will get several ceramic tube from high voltage ceramic fuse . They have inner dia. of 65mm and I think that they are perfect for what I need . Plan is this /it can t be easier then this / I will use this parts from stove.Big one are 20 cm. Dia and I will open them in middle to match out dia of ceramic tube.Space between them and ceramic tube filed with 10cm kaowool and stainless tube over all that . Cut of part from them I will adapt to fit inside Dia. of ceramic tube and fix it to that smaller heat element and I have perfect door and end side . I have not decide from which side to mount TC . . .from top or from back side of ceramic tube ? That is that .....can t be easier then this .I really can not see where can anything go wrong .
rnaIy92.jpg

When finished it will look something like this . . . .
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I can see big advantages with that design
Build wise so much easier and safer to use with the elements where they are
Temp didn't drop when he opened it either
Most I like on this kind of Ht oven is uniformity of temp inside tube and of course how easy is to build them :thumbsup:
If I know earlier that Kanthal wire can be wound in big coil like this .......My sand pot HT oven would be finished long time ago......But , it is never to late ... winter are long and cold so no fishing here ;)
 
Very cool. The heating precision is awesome. I rely on my forge and a muffler for my 1084. Everything else goes to Peters.
 

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Sure will be cool to see if it would work.

few things that come to mind tho.
  1. the heat up times are quite big by the data sheet - is it to make sure no additional stresses build up? I would have thought that 3 KW oven with a relatively small volume would heat up quite a lot faster. The cork at the end probably cant be too tight of a fit.
  2. the uniform temperature range probably depends on the effectiveness of the end plugs, should the values from the data sheet be multiplied by some number in case of a getto build?
 
Funny this topic has come up. I have my own ideas regarding this topic/type of oven but I’m holding them close to the chest as of now.
 
Well I found and I watched this video clip on You tube , this guy is genius ......:thumbsup: Forced me to do some research about this kind of furnace .What I found so far tell me that this is prefect HT furnace for me .One or maybe two blade can be HT at once but that is all I need .To build this thing is very easy and cheap ....Plus can be done even with inert atmosfere or vacuum.

What do you think ? It can t be simple then this to build Ht oven for us who work on one knife at time ?

Good idea but this design is relatively old. Surely East Germany and Czechoslovakia in 80' made it often.
Can't place direct link to pictures here but here are links to threads:

http://www.knife.cz/Default.aspx?tabid=53&g=posts&m=656020#656020
http://www.knife.cz/Default.aspx?tabid=53&g=posts&m=519611#519611

http://www.knife.cz/Default.aspx?tabid=53&g=posts&m=657245#657245
http://www.knife.cz/Default.aspx?tabid=53&g=posts&m=923356#923356

I'll stay tuned waiting for your one... :)
 
Funny this topic has come up. I have my own ideas regarding this topic/type of oven but I’m holding them close to the chest as of now.
Yes ...hold them close to the chest .I don t see that anybody ask you to share your ideas :D I open this topic to hear opinion what other think about this kind of oven , not how to build one .
 
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Good idea but this design is relatively old. Surely East Germany and Czechoslovakia in 80' made it often.
Can't place direct link to pictures here but here are links to threads:
I'll stay tuned waiting for your one... :)
First one will be almost same as this guy in video make it . He make only one mistake as I can see , he use very short thermocouple and at the end of tube . . .just right where temp is lower ............
Do you maybe have some link where to buy electronic in Austria / Wien is best / for things like kaowool , pid ...thermocouple ...ceramic board ...etc ?? I cant find here in Macedonia anything related with this subject :mad:
 
Sure will be cool to see if it would work.

few things that come to mind tho.
  1. the heat up times are quite big by the data sheet - is it to make sure no additional stresses build up? I would have thought that 3 KW oven with a relatively small volume would heat up quite a lot faster. The cork at the end probably cant be too tight of a fit.
  2. the uniform temperature range probably depends on the effectiveness of the end plugs, should the values from the data sheet be multiplied by some number in case of a getto build?
Model CTF/12/65/550 need 45 min to get 1100 C , with only 2000 W .Tube is 65mm. inner diametar and 550mm long .I have no idea if 45 min. to reach 1100 celsius is long ....I will use same Dia. but only 350 mm long same or more Watts and time must be shorter little ?
What I like in this type of oven is opportunity to make it to use inert gas inside .....very easy .
 
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A few thoughts:

The rate of heating may be limited by the thermal gradient the tube can tolerate. Diameter, wall thickness, Thermal Conductivity, Thermal Expansion Coefficient and mechanical properties will all factor in. If you make it heat faster than the tube can safely take, the chances are it'll break.

45 min to 1100 degC, 2012 degF, does not seem unusual: probably faster than many conventional HT ovens out there. There was a thread on warm-up times fairly recently:
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/heat-treat-oven-warm-up-time.1620302/#post-18508086

Inert gas should work ok with care. The injection rate might need to be pretty low to avoid introducing a temperature gradient though. It's probably something that will need to be established once the furnace is built. Vacuum seems likely to be much more difficult to implement effectively with typical shop equipment.

Going shorter on the tube will probably reduce the uniform temperature zone by the full reduction in tube length, so reducing from a 550mm tube with 230mm uniform zone to a 350mm tube would probably only give a 30mm ( 1 1/4") uniform zone.
 
Inert gas should work ok with care. The injection rate might need to be pretty low to avoid introducing a temperature gradient though. It's probably something that will need to be established once the furnace is built. Vacuum seems likely to be much more difficult to implement effectively with typical shop equipment.

Going shorter on the tube will probably reduce the uniform temperature zone by the full reduction in tube length, so reducing from a 550mm tube with 230mm uniform zone to a 350mm tube would probably only give a 30mm ( 1 1/4") uniform zone.
I think that I read that it need only 2 millibar ?
You a right about length of tube ...:thumbsup:
Now I need help , which Kanthal wire I need to buy ? A-1 or APM . APM is much more expensive but if it is better I have no problem with price ? And what thickness I need ? Is it 1.2mm enough ? Is this two wire good for stainless temp ?
 
The pressure at the point of injection will probably want to be lower than you can realistically measure. I'd use a Rotameter fitted with a needle valve in the supply line, personally. Either a welding one if it'll go low enough or something like a Dwyer MM21. Calibration for air will be good enough for the job, even though Argon is denser. I'd guess you'll probably want a fairly high initial flow to purge the tube (2-10 litres/min?), then a much lower continuous flow (0.1-0.5 litres/min?) to maintain the inert atmosphere with the plugs in place.

Kanthal APM is the Powder Metallurgy version of A1. I'd use A1 because it seems to work fine in my homebuilt HT ovens. My personal minimum is 1.28mm (16AWG), but I've been using 1.6mm lately, following a couple of element failures with the thinner stuff. I once built a little tiny salt pot for folders and did not have enough space to use 16AWG elements at 230V, so I ran at 110V using a tool transformer (in the UK, construction site power tools are 110VAC with centre-tapped Earth/Ground for safety and 230V to 110V transformers are easy to source. One advantage of a longer tube is more area for the elements, allowing thicker, and therefore longer wire, for any given heat output. The A1 seems fine at stainless temperatures. Knowing some people are now using stuff like M35 HSS, which needs higher temperatures than some ovens are rated for, I test-ran my last couple of ovens to 1300 degC, 2372 degF, with no apparent problems.
 
Thanks @timgunn1962 :thumbsup:A1 1.6mm thick , that part of problem solved ! I will use kaowool one inch thick .I Think that in that thickness it will easier roll on tube ? Two layers of course to get two inch isolation . Now , plan is to coat kaowool from inside / only first layer which will make full circle over ceramic tube / with something similar to ITC-100 / And what if I coat Kanthal wire and ceramic tube with ITC- 100 ? Is it bad or good ,what do you think ?
I found another place to look and steal some idea .Fortunately they /Carbolite and MTI Corp./ don t hide anything .I think that now I have pretty clear idea how to make this furnace .
I notice they use pretty expensive PID controlers .But that Eurotherm is available to me ....
https://www.mtixtl.com/furnacemodule.aspx
https://www.mtixtl.com/refractory-tube-block.aspx
 
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I would not mess with any coating at all on the blanket or on the Kanthal. One inch/25mm would be my choice and 8 lb/cu ft/128 kg/m3 density. I'd probably try to use a double wrap of 1400 degC/2600 degF blanket if possible: If you are running an internal temperature of about 1100 degC (2012 degF) and have any sort of temperature gradient through the tube wall, the element seems likely to be significantly hotter than the chamber. I'd not be too upset if the hi-temp blanket is not available where you are. Either the 1260 degC/2300 degF Ceramic fibre or, if nothing else is available, the 1200 degC Low-Body-Persistence Aluminium Silicate should work OK. The higher-temperature stuff just gives a margin for comfort. In the UK, the LBP stuff is about all we can get in less than full box quantities.

I don't know your preferred construction method, but I'd probably keep wrapping the blanket until I had a snug fit into a 6" thinwall pipe or duct, cut off the excess and just shove it in.

Coatings for blanket are mainly recommended to immobilize the fibres for safety. You'll have the tube for that. ITC100 is usually recommended as a high-emissivity coating to improve radiant heating and is expensive. In this case, you are going to be using conductive heat transfer from the element to the tube, so the radiative properties do not really matter. Spend the money on something else that might actually help the design to work better. I would rigidize the blanket where it protrudes beyond the tube, if indeed it does protrude, if only to stop it flopping about and getting in the way when putting blades in and out.

The PID controllers I use on my ovens are either Omega CN7823 or Automation Direct Solo 4848VR controllers. As far as I can tell, they are exactly the same controller with different badges and I buy whichever is cheapest at the time. They have ramp/soak capability. Both Omega and AD have international distributors and, IME, excellent technical support. The Auber Instruments SYL-2352P controller seems popular in the US and has ramp/soak capability, though I have not used it myself because Auber do not have a UK presence. Any industrial ramp/soak controller will be a LOT less easy to program for the ramp/soak profiles than any of the ramp/soak controllers supplied by the commercial kiln manufacturers. Those are specifically intended for use by the end-user and considerable expense goes into making them easy to use. I looked into aftermarket kiln controllers a few years ago and could not find any that offered a 2-second output cycle, which my testing showed was needed for a stable output with my ovens, so settled on the AD SL4848VR and Omega CN7823. Current US prices are $134 for the Omega, $104 for the AD and $79 for the Auber, though these will probably differ wildly from the actual prices delivered to you (in Macedonia).

If you buy a cheap controller without ramp/soak for initial proof-of-concept, it is worth leaving the wires long when you wire it up. That way you can upgrade later and the wires will still reach if (when) the terminal layout is different.
 
I would not mess with any coating at all on the blanket or on the Kanthal. One inch/25mm would be my choice and 8 lb/cu ft/128 kg/m3 density. I'd probably try to use a double wrap of 1400 degC/2600 degF blanket if possible: If you are running an internal temperature of about 1100 degC (2012 degF) and have any sort of temperature gradient through the tube wall, the element seems likely to be significantly hotter than the chamber. I'd not be too upset if the hi-temp blanket is not available where you are. Either the 1260 degC/2300 degF Ceramic fibre or, if nothing else is available, the 1200 degC Low-Body-Persistence Aluminium Silicate should work OK. The higher-temperature stuff just gives a margin for comfort. In the UK, the LBP stuff is about all we can get in less than full box quantities.

I don't know your preferred construction method, but I'd probably keep wrapping the blanket until I had a snug fit into a 6" thinwall pipe or duct, cut off the excess and just shove it in.

Coatings for blanket are mainly recommended to immobilize the fibres for safety. You'll have the tube for that. ITC100 is usually recommended as a high-emissivity coating to improve radiant heating and is expensive. In this case, you are going to be using conductive heat transfer from the element to the tube, so the radiative properties do not really matter. Spend the money on something else that might actually help the design to work better. I would rigidize the blanket where it protrudes beyond the tube, if indeed it does protrude, if only to stop it flopping about and getting in the way when putting blades in and out.

The PID controllers I use on my ovens are either Omega CN7823 or Automation Direct Solo 4848VR controllers. As far as I can tell, they are exactly the same controller with different badges and I buy whichever is cheapest at the time. They have ramp/soak capability. Both Omega and AD have international distributors and, IME, excellent technical support. The Auber Instruments SYL-2352P controller seems popular in the US and has ramp/soak capability, though I have not used it myself because Auber do not have a UK presence. Any industrial ramp/soak controller will be a LOT less easy to program for the ramp/soak profiles than any of the ramp/soak controllers supplied by the commercial kiln manufacturers. Those are specifically intended for use by the end-user and considerable expense goes into making them easy to use. I looked into aftermarket kiln controllers a few years ago and could not find any that offered a 2-second output cycle, which my testing showed was needed for a stable output with my ovens, so settled on the AD SL4848VR and Omega CN7823. Current US prices are $134 for the Omega, $104 for the AD and $79 for the Auber, though these will probably differ wildly from the actual prices delivered to you (in Macedonia).

If you buy a cheap controller without ramp/soak for initial proof-of-concept, it is worth leaving the wires long when you wire it up. That way you can upgrade later and the wires will still reach if (when) the terminal layout is different.
Thank you very,very much for your help .... :thumbsup:
OK , 25mm , 128 kg/m3 kaowool , Omega CN7823 !
About building , I have another one question .I see that in your build you use ceramic fiber board , so I would like to know if ceramic board can be cut clean ? This is how I plan to do both side of tube . If I can make clean cut in this shape I need /thickness 20-25mm/ I think that it would do great job ? I m afraid that if ceramic tube is held only by kaowool with time will sink/slide ?? down from weight ?

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