Turpentine Availability

S

SwedeFP

Joined
Oct 17, 2020
Messages
94
Good morning, it's been a bit since I've posted. I use turpentine, BLO, and pine tar as a handle finish. It seems that turpentine is getting hard to find, especially in a gallon size. I suspect it is getting phased out. Has anyone else noticed this or have any insight into what is going on?
 
It's been largely phased out in favor of mineral spirits for a number of reasons, including a host of performance factors, safety, toxicity, and cost. Turpentine production these days is mostly done in India, China, and a few regions of Europe, and is then being refined into cleaner isolates that are still used by industry at scale, but the cocktail historically classed simply as "oil of turpentine" is kind of a jumble of terpenic hydrocarbons that, while composed MOSTLY of compounds that, in small quantities, are so safe that they're used as food flavoring and aroma compounds in perfumes and cosmetics, while others are used as plasticizers or degreasers, antimicrobials, and surfactants. So basically purer forms are largely being used instead, and folks that want a high-purity turpentine like pure gum spirits of turpentine, rather than a further-refined isolate, are usually used in low enough quantities that gallon jugs are unlikely to be a useful size to most consumers.

I've been experimenting with developing a solvent-based wax polish for steel and wood to rival Renaissance Wax in performance and cost, and started off with VM&P naphtha, but received questions about if it could be used on cutting boards. Further research has led me to discover that the FDA has approved certain naphtha grades for use in wax sprays used on citrus fruit, but at the time it got me looking at organic solvents of various sorts, and I've now done some experimentation with α-pinene, a terpene that comprises about 20-50% of turpentine by volume, and can say that it is powerful stuff. VERY strong smell, but evaporates slowly, taking about 24 hours to evaporate 75% of the applied quantity, and you can pretty easily make your head swim if you breathe the vapor too much, so it's recommended to apply it outdoors or in an otherwise well-ventilated area. However, the smell does serve as a good indicator of how well-cured the coating is and once it gets to a level where it's just a "pleasant pine scent" you know you're in a range that would be safe for food contact. The slower evaporation rate also allows me to use a higher percentage of food-grade polyethylene wax in the composition, as it's a VERY hard wax and it quickly becomes difficult to apply if the solvent evaporates off too rapidly. Ultimately I'll be sticking with VM&P naphtha for my primary formulation, but will also have the α-pinene based blend available, and may even use a little in tandem with the VM&P naphtha to assist with a heavier PE wax percentage.

Ultimately while it "feels right" using turpentine in conjunction with pine tar, you may find that a petroleum distillate like odorless mineral spirits (safest but least powerful), mineral spirits, naphtha, Stoddard solvent, white spirit, kerosene, etc. will all be possible functional substitutes for turpentine.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
It's been largely phased out in favor of mineral spirits for a number of reasons, including a host of performance factors, safety, toxicity, and cost. Turpentine production these days is mostly done in India, China, and a few regions of Europe, and is then being refined into cleaner isolates that are still used by industry at scale, but the cocktail historically classed simply as "oil of turpentine" is kind of a jumble of terpenic hydrocarbons that, while composed MOSTLY of compounds that, in small quantities, are so safe that they're used as food flavoring and aroma compounds in perfumes and cosmetics, while others are used as plasticizers or degreasers, antimicrobials, and surfactants. So basically purer forms are largely being used instead, and folks that want a high-purity turpentine like pure gum spirits of turpentine, rather than a further-refined isolate, are usually used in low enough quantities that gallon jugs are unlikely to be a useful size to most consumers.

I've been experimenting with developing a solvent-based wax polish for steel and wood to rival Renaissance Wax in performance and cost, and started off with VM&P naphtha, but received questions about if it could be used on cutting boards. Further research has led me to discover that the FDA has approved certain naphtha grades for use in wax sprays used on citrus fruit, but at the time it got me looking at organic solvents of various sorts, and I've now done some experimentation with α-pinene, a terpene that comprises about 20-50% of turpentine by volume, and can say that it is powerful stuff. VERY strong smell, but evaporates slowly, taking about 24 hours to evaporate 75% of the applied quantity, and you can pretty easily make your head swim if you breathe the vapor too much, so it's recommended to apply it outdoors or in an otherwise well-ventilated area. However, the smell does serve as a good indicator of how well-cured the coating is and once it gets to a level where it's just a "pleasant pine scent" you know you're in a range that would be safe for food contact. The slower evaporation rate also allows me to use a higher percentage of food-grade polyethylene wax in the composition, as it's a VERY hard wax and it quickly becomes difficult to apply if the solvent evaporates off too rapidly. Ultimately I'll be sticking with VM&P naphtha for my primary formulation, but will also have the α-pinene based blend available, and may even use a little in tandem with the VM&P naphtha to assist with a heavier PE wax percentage.

Ultimately while it "feels right" using turpentine in conjunction with pine tar, you may find that a petroleum distillate like odorless mineral spirits (safest but least powerful), mineral spirits, naphtha, Stoddard solvent, white spirit, kerosene, etc. will all be possible functional substitutes for turpentine.
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FortyTwoBlades FortyTwoBlades thanks for the indepth reply. I'd come to a similar conclusion about OMS and other solvents, but I'd also read that they don't evaporate in the same way as turpentine. Then, there is my stubborn bent to like the older ways and materials. I am also using this mix on a tulip poplar sided barn, although the next version will substitute 100% tung oil for the BLO. I am working outside, but still had a bit of hign fumes on a hot day. Thankfully, it has cooled down. This stuff looks great on the wood, so it is my go to now. I hope to get greater water repellancy and durability plus better color with the tung oil. It should look great on a handle. I made some axe paste with roughly the same ingredients with bees wax added. It sticks very well to my axe heads and other metal tools. I've yet to work on my scythe.
 
As former old time paint chemist, I'm reasonably familiar with this topic.

"Mineral spirits" and "turpentine", are not specific chemicals. "Mineral spirits" are derived from petroleum and consist of various different molecules. Some are linear some are branched. Typically 6-15 carbon atoms. The boiling point and cutting power of the stuff varies. Typically mineral spirits is differentiated by the "boiling range" ("start boil" "dry point") and that can vary quite a bit. The point is that you can obtain fluids with various properties that are all correctly called "mineral spirits". When a paint store supplies "mineral spirits", there can be variation in the can contents depending on what stock they purchased from which supplier. (VM&P [Varnish Makers and Painters] naphtha also has some variation, but less, because it is sold for an intended purpose and the source stock is chosen in order to meet that,)

"Turpentine" is derived from tree sap. The properties will vary depending on the tree. Traditional turpentine was derived from New England pine trees. Switching to sourcing from India means changing to a different starting stock. So the properties are likely to be different.

Here's a typical VM&P data sheet. Scroll down to the "Product Details". Those details will vary somewhat depending on which manufacturer
www.univarsolutions.com

VM&P Naphtha

VM&P NAPHTHA
www.univarsolutions.com www.univarsolutions.com
 
SwedeFP said:
FortyTwoBlades FortyTwoBlades thanks for the indepth reply. I'd come to a similar conclusion about OMS and other solvents, but I'd also read that they don't evaporate in the same way as turpentine. Then, there is my stubborn bent to like the older ways and materials. I am also using this mix on a tulip poplar sided barn, although the next version will substitute 100% tung oil for the BLO. I am working outside, but still had a bit of hign fumes on a hot day. Thankfully, it has cooled down. This stuff looks great on the wood, so it is my go to now. I hope to get greater water repellancy and durability plus better color with the tung oil. It should look great on a handle. I made some axe paste with roughly the same ingredients with bees wax added. It sticks very well to my axe heads and other metal tools. I've yet to work on my scythe.
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Basically you can match the evaporation rate to the solvent you use. "High flash naphtha" has a similar evaporation rate to turpentine from the numbers I'm seeing, so you might give that a try.
 
garry3 said:
No problem at all here in Idaho, I think some of the big box stores just carry the quart size though.
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Almost the same here, but both Lowes and Walmart will have a quart or two, then you have to wait on restocking to get another same amount. I'll use close to 6 gallons on this barn, so this makes it hard to plan. I did find it on Zoro, if I bought 6 quarts, so I snapped that up. I may set some back for the possibility it disappears. I actually somewhat like the smell.
 
I live on a piece of land in North Florida and turpentine was big business in my area in the 1800s until around the 1920s. every time I disk up an area with my tractor for planting, pieces of clay pots come up. I also find parts of them through out the woods while hunting. these pots were called Herty pots, small clay pots used for collecting sap from Longleaf pine trees. it was then distilled into turpentine, and a thicker tar for sealing wooden ships. it was BIG business all around here with lots of story's on the web.
I still have two giant pines here that have evidence of this being done to them, what they did was cut long chevron looking cuts down the side of the tree, called cat faces, hang a tin plate to catch the sap, and drain into the Herty pot.
this ended in the early 20s and I'm surprised these trees are still around. and every time I go for a walk I find pieces of these pots. never found a whole one but I do pick up the big pieces and have a pretty good pile. just a little history on turpentine! :D
 
bladegrinder said:
I live on a piece of land in North Florida and turpentine was big business in my area in the 1800s until around the 1920s. every time I disk up an area with my tractor for planting, pieces of clay pots come up. I also find parts of them through out the woods while hunting. these pots were called Herty pots, small clay pots used for collecting sap from Longleaf pine trees. it was then distilled into turpentine, and a thicker tar for sealing wooden ships. it was BIG business all around here with lots of story's on the web.
I still have two giant pines here that have evidence of this being done to them, what they did was cut long chevron looking cuts down the side of the tree, called cat faces, hang a tin plate to catch the sap, and drain into the Herty pot.
this ended in the early 20s and I'm surprised these trees are still around. and every time I go for a walk I find pieces of these pots. never found a whole one but I do pick up the big pieces and have a pretty good pile. just a little history on turpentine! :D
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It would really be something to see those trees. I have been reading up on the industry and found these articles. The first one shows those chevron marks. There were special axes used for turpentine work, and I occasionally see them on auction sites.
contingentmagazine.org

Turpentine in Time

Each community had an overseer who supervised the operations and the commissary. He also enforced the law.
contingentmagazine.org contingentmagazine.org
The guy in the article has a FB page which is public.

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I also found an article on the financial turpentine market, and it looks like it is growing rather than shrinking...
 
Interesting read.
While I don’t know much about turpentine, I do prefer to use pine oil for cleaning the floors and the bathroom. The real pine oil soaps and not pine sol which doesn’t even have pine oil in it anymore.

First started using it in the Army as that’s what the gubment provided for barracks cleaning, and grew to love the scent and the way it turned the hot water milky white.
The one I can find locally is called “pinalin” or similar spelling, it’s not as pure pine scented as the army stuff, but closest I can find in person and works well, also turns the water into pine milk.
 
Pine gel cleaners are pretty commonly ranging from India through East Asia but are looked down on as a "poor person's cleaner" because of how economical they are and a bit harsh on the skin. But boy howdy does it clean AND smell nice. Basically made just using pine oil, a surfactant, and some stabilizers.
 
BJE said:
Interesting read.
While I don’t know much about turpentine, I do prefer to use pine oil for cleaning the floors and the bathroom. The real pine oil soaps and not pine sol which doesn’t even have pine oil in it anymore.

First started using it in the Army as that’s what the gubment provided for barracks cleaning, and grew to love the scent and the way it turned the hot water milky white.
The one I can find locally is called “pinalin” or similar spelling, it’s not as pure pine scented as the army stuff, but closest I can find in person and works well, also turns the water into pine milk.
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Man, I'm glad you mentioned that pinalin, as my local Dollar General carries it. I will try it, and always loved the smell of Pinesol. My stain turned out well in my opinion. Thinking more on the color (an amber to honey color from tung oil), the turpentine and pine tar contribute to the final color, so another plus for turpentine in my book. I am looking forward to using it on an axe handle.
 
SwedeFP said:
Man, I'm glad you mentioned that pinalin, as my local Dollar General carries it. I will try it, and always loved the smell of Pinesol. My stain turned out well in my opinion. Thinking more on the color (an amber to honey color from tung oil), the turpentine and pine tar contribute to the final color, so another plus for turpentine in my book. I am looking forward to using it on an axe handle.
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IMG_3628.jpeg
This is the stuff I’m using now, if any fans of pine oil cleaner know of better let me know. I might be inclined to order some to try.
Off the top of my head pinalen has approx 4% pine oil, while the stuff I recall using in basic training was 80%, and didn’t contain much else, smelled amazing to me and cleaned well, but could be overpowering and make your eyes burn if you used too much lol, I want that stuff again.
 
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BJE said:
View attachment 2680175
This is the stuff I’m using now, if any fans of pine oil cleaner know of better let me know. I might be inclined to order some to try.
Off the top of my head pinalen has approx 4% pine oil, while the stuff I recall using in basic training was 9 or 10%, and didn’t contain much else, smelled amazing to me and cleaned well, but could be overpowering and make your eyes burn if you used too much lol, I want that stuff again.
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You might try making your own, though the pine oil itself might be a little challenging to source.

 
Not sure what that gel would even be used for, an air freshener?
 
BJE said:
Not sure what that gel would even be used for, an air freshener?
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It's a cleaner! It can be diluted in water as a cleaning fluid, or applied like a soap. The thicker texture is good for clinging to surfaces for easier coating, like shower surfaces, for instance.
 
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