TV ruins Reality AGAIN

MadeOnABench said:
Have you seen the show Knife or Death? It's a spin off of Forged in Fire.

Each episode has contestants using blades that they either made themselves, had custom made, or just purchased off the shelf in a gauntlet of different cutting tasks. Materials they cut through include meat, rope, ice, wood, and metal.

The show focuses mostly on skill and technique with the contestants racing a clock to complete the challenges. They don't get too nerdy, but occasionally you'll hear talk about blade steel and heat treating.
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I’ve seen that show. I was exhausted! Some of the competitors were too😆


Speaking of Forged in Fire..awhile ago (before this forum) I sent for this knife. $19 and it’s actually nice to use. Obviously a $ grab thing by the show. At $19 I can guess it’s nationality. With what I’ve learned here, I kind of smile when I grab it, but “Eat weel cut!”C35D5EA9-FD14-4306-B228-295FC425DA92.jpeg
 
Maybe add this into the new show. Probably more likely than it ending up mainstream. I don't like the elimination style of forged in fire. I think it'd be better if everyone got the end challenge with an overall score. What someone does with crap materials and a couple of hours in a foreign space isn't a good way to judge their work altogether. I don't like the slowmo/angle changes in the testing. I'm not gonna say it's rigged but I don't know that it's not either. I don't like that the judge could go harder or softer on a knife on purpose or from fatigue. I never noticed close ups of a lot of determining factors either. I'd rather them throw the knife on some more scientific based testers and give me the results. Even if they wanted to do all the theatrics still. I'd also like to see more common edc stuff too.

I don't know how many people watch the show to see some crazy camera work on some form of knifing or hammering. Maybe this is something to consider in the new show? Make them pick their production people and see who makes the best finished footie of their knife in action.
 
Other than talking to the people who have worked in the industry, you find out most of what you need to know about Reality TV, when the sets shut down during a writer's strike. With some rapid cut editing and dramatic music you can make pushing a shopping cart in an empty store look edgy. A lot of the way they do the editing to show how crazy and out of control things are with a countdown clock have no bearing on what is actually going on if any reality at all is going on. They're all scripted, fake, heavily edited for narratives, with fake prizes, and have non-disclosure contracts you could knock out a bull elephant with.
 
there are a lot of youtubers who test knives to destruction, but of course they don't involve the making of.... since they're production knives

there are also a lot of youtubers that just make knives

between these, you should get some of the itch scratched V VorpelSword ; )
 
On some glass blowing forum they're probably picking apart the show Blown Away. Same with some tattoo forum and the show Ink Master or with some fashion design forum and the show Project Runway.

These shows are designed to appeal to a wide audience to make money. If they were to focus more on the aspects that are important to people involved in that hobby or culture, they'd likely lose interest from the majority of people that are watching more for the entertainment.

As knife hobbyists / enthusiasts / collectors we just aren't their target audience. And likely no show designed to appeal to us would do well enough with regular audiences to survive.
 
eveled said:
My favorite part of the show is when they go home to their own workshop. There can be quite a contrast.

A guy in the suburbs working in his driveway competing against a guy on a ranch with a full blown shop.

Some have power hammers, some barely have hammers.
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The guys with almost no equipment can pull off amazing things. I still remember the one where the finalists were making a really thin sword. To do the heat treat the guy dug a hole in the ground, filled it with coals and was using a leaf blower to fan it. He ended up with the better blade and the win.
 
The one that cracks me up is Josh Gates, Expedition Unknowm.
He‘s squeezing through a space you have to expel all your air to fit in...and the guy filming all this, did it first, backwards, with a camera. He’s the real adventurer.
I like Josh though. Funny guy. Maybe someday he’ll really find something.
 
MadeOnABench said:
On some glass blowing forum they're probably picking apart the show Blown Away. Same with some tattoo forum and the show Ink Master or with some fashion design forum and the show Project Runway.

These shows are designed to appeal to a wide audience to make money. If they were to focus more on the aspects that are important to people involved in that hobby or culture, they'd likely lose interest from the majority of people that are watching more for the entertainment.

As knife hobbyists / enthusiasts / collectors we just aren't their target audience. And likely no show designed to appeal to us would do well enough with regular audiences to survive.
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Now, just wait a minute, don't you think the average housewife from Boise or NYC would be enraptured by an in depth comparison of super-steels, or a lecture on toughness versus edge retention by the inimitable Larrin? Yeah, I'm thinking you are right.
 
I like the show for what it is. Entertainment. Is it heavily edited to increase the entertainment value? Of course. Can you really learn how to make a knife on The show? Of course not. Do you really learn anything about a makers actual capabilities? No. Are the challenges ridiculous? Sure! So what? It still beats watching most of the rest of the shlock you find on t.v.
 
VorpelSword said:
I was an initial fan, but became disappointed in the "Forged In Fire" TV program. I really enjoyed the testing, but it was changed for each episode. The makers were always required to make a knife that no regular citizen would EDC unless they were a hunter-gatherer or warfighter (exaggeration). I kept looking for an episode to produce a masterwork. The show's format never really allowed that to happen. There were some really great looking and well performing knives made, but the time pressure always got in the way of a knife makers creating a true master work.

I know that there are excellent makers out there with access to top-drawer materials who are working in techniques that they have mastered.

I would lolve to see a special show where they tested highly touted production and semi-custom knives to destruction. The budget for such a show would allow them to buy high-end knives off the shelf and and find their ultimate limitations.. Edge retention, toughness would be my interest. Corrosion resistance is important of course, but everyone knows that steel will corrode to some extent. Usability might be a subjective thing, but the user's ability to keep a controlling grip on a knife while processing an Elk is important too.

There could be several episodes with testing on categories or types of knives together. . .. from pocket folders through belt knives and on to camp knives and so on. Price range might be one way to groupe knives . . . .these are details.

I know that this might not be that interesting to a wide audience. I know that premium knife makers would resist and involve lawyers.

Just early morning wishful thinking over my coffee.
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Ok, a few things.

So, as someone who has watched nearly all of it up to the present season over the years, and have met a bunch of the makers at BLADE, I fully understand why they don't do what you're suggesting. The showrunners have a goal: make an hour of entertaining TV for folks who like knives, might like knives, and who might like to try making knives at some point after learning more about it. There have been plenty of contestants in the later seasons who always mention that they're there that day because they watched the show back in the early seasons and thought "I could do that!" and get a couple years of experience under the belt and then BOOM, they're on the show. That's pretty cool, honestly. Also, the show is really about showing clear differences in skill level and even more importantly time management. There are plenty of guys who have been making knives for like, twenty years who end up not being able to finish a quality testworthy product in the time allotted, while the kid two anvils down who has been making knives in his parents' garage part time for the last 18 months is able to turn in a serviceable knife for testing. That's pretty compelling when it happens. It's also why they do these timed rounds, to see who can hack it, and who got in over their head, ran outta time, and turned in a blade blank with two unfinished slabs of wood glued into place and held there by a single pin.

Secondly, the reason they don't give people like, a month to turn out a masterpiece is because A. that would be difficult to film and then trim down to fit that one hour formula, and secondly, it would actually remove a lot of what they're looking for. There are plenty of novices who could struggle through and actually churn out decent work in that time, thanks to the absolute overload of available information out there on knife-making these days. Hell, a lot of these younger guys that go on the show usually either learned it from apprenticing with someone who was previously on the show, or who's a master knife maker themselves. Also, for every guy who's got a ratty little shed in his backyard and a beat-up old hammer and a coal forge, there are several guys who have their own (or have access to) a large super well-stocked shop. So, that makes it more difficult to compare, and of course, I should caveat that with the fact that I've seen plenty of episodes where the guy who submitted a crappy looking, poorly finished sword/blade/etc. beat the other guy, who spent a lot of time on making their work beautiful...but the blade snapped on the first challenge. Oops.

Lastly, how do you judge masterpieces like custom knives? There have been many instances where the judges have had to come down to those details when both final weapons performed well, and they never look like they enjoy it that much. Also, let's be honest, some of the biggest most historic, most iconic names in this country make (or made when they were alive) knives that performed well at being knives. Would you want to see a Jimmy Lyle hunter or a (insert master maker of your choice here)'s knife hammered against the edge of a barrel or beat through a giant ice block? Not to mention, most custom knife makers (and most production makers) aren't Busse or CPK. They don't make their knives to withstand being hammered through antlers, or to be beat on things designed to destroy the edge, so right off the bat you're going to have very few makers volunteering to be on the show. After all, if they can sell a knife for $3,500, the winning price of $10,000 isn't going to really mean much.

Now, if they got rid of all the endurance tests, sure, you'd probably get a bunch of those guys buying in, but honestly, the endurance tests are part of the fun of the show. Nothing like watching J Nielson or Ben Abbott smashing a knife into some ridiculous thing like a giant cross section of telephone pole, only to hear the "TIIINNNG" as the blade snaps, and the camera cuts to the maker's face and you can see the guy's soul drop into his shoes. LOL As for straight out destruction videos, Youtube is full of those guys if that's your thing.
 
Quiet Quiet , thanks for reminding me what this thread started as. I've been reading about Guy Fieri, somebody named Chumlee, House Hunters, lions and all kinds of other strange things.

As for what you posted, for the most part it was spot on. I have met two of the guys that competed on FIF, and they described your thoughts very closely. One of the fellows I talked to actually won and he was glad to talk about it down at the Cigar Club I frequent if someone would buy him a stick.

Both described it as all business. The contestants were left to work between the stop periods and according to the two guys I talked to, most of the time the judges just left the room to take care of other business. They did not leave the premises, so they would come together when it looked like it was time to film a good reactionary shot from the group. He also told me that sometimes when things broke or hot stuff was dropped on the floor, judges were not there. Their reaction shots were fills inserted later.

He did tell me that Doug Marcaida (sp?) and Ben Abbott were really nice guys and spent some time talking to the contestants, walking around on the floor and Ben Abbot even gave a few free tips. He said the mustachioed guy out of a bad western was polite but really busy on his phone, and he referred to Nielson as a real "Richard".

Both said it was a great experience and it was a real boon to their business. They liked that a lot. But they both said that the idea of it being this cozy "brotherhood of knife makers" fantasy wasn't there. According to them there were more safety compliance, medical, and camera/sound people on the set than anyone else.
 
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Quiet said:
Ok, a few things.

So, as someone who has watched nearly all of it up to the present season over the years, and have met a bunch of the makers at BLADE, I fully understand why they don't do what you're suggesting. The showrunners have a goal: make an hour of entertaining TV for folks who like knives, might like knives, and who might like to try making knives at some point after learning more about it. There have been plenty of contestants in the later seasons who always mention that they're there that day because they watched the show back in the early seasons and thought "I could do that!" and get a couple years of experience under the belt and then BOOM, they're on the show. That's pretty cool, honestly. Also, the show is really about showing clear differences in skill level and even more importantly time management. There are plenty of guys who have been making knives for like, twenty years who end up not being able to finish a quality testworthy product in the time allotted, while the kid two anvils down who has been making knives in his parents' garage part time for the last 18 months is able to turn in a serviceable knife for testing. That's pretty compelling when it happens. It's also why they do these timed rounds, to see who can hack it, and who got in over their head, ran outta time, and turned in a blade blank with two unfinished slabs of wood glued into place and held there by a single pin.

Secondly, the reason they don't give people like, a month to turn out a masterpiece is because A. that would be difficult to film and then trim down to fit that one hour formula, and secondly, it would actually remove a lot of what they're looking for. There are plenty of novices who could struggle through and actually churn out decent work in that time, thanks to the absolute overload of available information out there on knife-making these days. Hell, a lot of these younger guys that go on the show usually either learned it from apprenticing with someone who was previously on the show, or who's a master knife maker themselves. Also, for every guy who's got a ratty little shed in his backyard and a beat-up old hammer and a coal forge, there are several guys who have their own (or have access to) a large super well-stocked shop. So, that makes it more difficult to compare, and of course, I should caveat that with the fact that I've seen plenty of episodes where the guy who submitted a crappy looking, poorly finished sword/blade/etc. beat the other guy, who spent a lot of time on making their work beautiful...but the blade snapped on the first challenge. Oops.

Lastly, how do you judge masterpieces like custom knives? There have been many instances where the judges have had to come down to those details when both final weapons performed well, and they never look like they enjoy it that much. Also, let's be honest, some of the biggest most historic, most iconic names in this country make (or made when they were alive) knives that performed well at being knives. Would you want to see a Jimmy Lyle hunter or a (insert master maker of your choice here)'s knife hammered against the edge of a barrel or beat through a giant ice block? Not to mention, most custom knife makers (and most production makers) aren't Busse or CPK. They don't make their knives to withstand being hammered through antlers, or to be beat on things designed to destroy the edge, so right off the bat you're going to have very few makers volunteering to be on the show. After all, if they can sell a knife for $3,500, the winning price of $10,000 isn't going to really mean much.

Now, if they got rid of all the endurance tests, sure, you'd probably get a bunch of those guys buying in, but honestly, the endurance tests are part of the fun of the show. Nothing like watching J Nielson or Ben Abbott smashing a knife into some ridiculous thing like a giant cross section of telephone pole, only to hear the "TIIINNNG" as the blade snaps, and the camera cuts to the maker's face and you can see the guy's soul drop into his shoes. LOL As for straight out destruction videos, Youtube is full of those guys if that's your thing.
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Pretty much nailed it - the show is geared toward specific skills of the smiths. It’s the only competition show I actually enjoy watching. The competitors usually work together and help each other out if needed, which is a great show of sportsmanship. The judges are also very respectful of all the contestants; even if somebody turns out a totally unusable piece of crap, they find something to complement them on rather than harp on the obvious. I do, however, very much miss Wil Willis. He seemed like a genuinely cool guy and very well spoken. Grady Powell just doesn’t have the personality and talks like he’s got a mouthful of ball bearings. Though I must admit, I haven’t watched it in about a year because I’ve had it up to here with @#$&%! COMMERCIALS, and I can’t be bothered recording it. In fact I mostly don’t watch much of anything any more - the $2400 in that nice big-azz tv that’s collecting dust would have bought some really nice knives that I’d be getting a whole lot more enjoyment out of.

I seem to have gone off on a bit of a tangent.
 
I have not watched the show much, but what struck me is: why are the "judges" whacking knives as hard as they can on concrete or other hard surfaces and then talking down to the maker when it fails. The other issue is they win a "grand prize" of $10,000, well in todays world 10k is not jack as time is money and what about the people that don't win, do they get paid?
 
Quiet said:
the reason they don't give people like, a month to turn out a masterpiece
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They've done a few episodes where they smiths had to bring in their best work for judging and someone would be eliminated right at the start.

Then from what I can recall they had to work all day on the one blade for testing. Nothing at the home forge after the first stage.
 
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