Two Large 52100 Blades Cracked Down Spine

Thanks for opening this up for discussion, Shaw.
I don't have an answer for you as far as the cracking, but it all adds up in the long run to better heat treatment for us all.
52100 is such a great steel, in my experience, and anything I can learn about it goes into making mo betta blades.
 
I agree that long wait tempering could be risky, but also quenching from 1550 may not be a good idea; If i would quench as a refining step i'd leave it to the lower heats in order to have not a lot of plate martensite microcracking issues...just to be on the safe side.
Thanks for this thread

I don't have a pyrometer but I forged it at normal colors I'm used to, descending heats.

Normalized @ 1600, 1400, 1200 (air cool)

Here are the instructions I was given:
Hold @ 1550 degrees for 15 minutes, quench
Hold @ 1500 degrees for 7-10 minutes, quench
Hold @ 1450-1475 degrees for 5-7 minutes, quench

temper immediately twice @ 400 degrees.

I had to wait about 2 hours for my oven to cool down before I tempered it. I think that might have been an issue too with the 52100 specifically.
 
Just to throw it out there... here is my current heat treat regime for 52100...

- Forge hot.
- Normalize, 1650F, cool to magnetic
- Normalize, 1525F, cool to magnetic
- Heat to 1450F, oil quench
- Heat to 1300F(red but still magnetic) and cool to black (3) times, quenching around 800F on the third.
- Grind, drill, sand, etc...
- Final heat treat, 1475F, hold 10 minutes, quench in medium speed oil.
- Once cooled to 130F, immediate snap temper at 375F in kitchen oven.
- Temper (2) times at 425F for 1hr.
 
I know parks 50 is too fast for 52100 but what about mcmaster carr 11sec quench. Seems like it would be just on the fence. Thanks for the ht regime.
 
I'm not an expert on quench oils Kieran (or anything for that matter!), but I think the McM Carr 11 second would be a splendid choice. Parks 50 is technically too fast for 52100, but works quite well. I've used it and canola with zero problems. Rick, thanks for your recipe, and all of you for this thread!!!!

One thing that I have NOT been incorporating into my regimen with 52100 or Cru Forge V is the quench on final normalizing heat, and the quench after spherodize annealing. That isn't because I don't see the reason, but because I have overlooked it, more or less! I have updated my knife making book, the chapter on heat treating, to reflect these steps. Thanks Rick again, and all of you for the reminders.
 
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Just to throw it out there... here is my current heat treat regime for 52100...

- Forge hot.
- Normalize, 1650F, cool to magnetic
- Normalize, 1525F, cool to magnetic
- Heat to 1450F, oil quench
- Heat to 1300F(red but still magnetic) and cool to black (3) times, quenching around 800F on the third.
- Grind, drill, sand, etc...
- Final heat treat, 1475F, hold 10 minutes, quench in medium speed oil.
- Once cooled to 130F, immediate snap temper at 375F in kitchen oven.
- Temper (2) times at 425F for 1hr.

Thanks Rick.
 
FORGE HOT.
The old blacksmith's adage, "Strike while the iron is hot" is good advice. It should be updated for bladesmiths to say, "Strike ONLY when the iron is hot".


I have stayed out of this thread because most folks know my opinion on triple quench and its related techniques.

The one thing I will note is that if you forge a hyper-eutectoid and moderately alloyed steel like 52100 at a low temperature ( as in descending heats), there is a real chance of making dislocations in the thicker areas - AKA the spine. Once made, they will not go away. No amount of forging or normalizing will help once they exist. They will sit there waiting for the quench where the stresses will shear them apart and split the blade right down the center, or crack it vertically. I have seen improperly forged 1095 blades split in half right down the spine. Too fast a quenchant will only increase the problem.

Forging ranges are there for a reason. The forging range for 52100 starts at 2100F and it needs to stop at 1700F....or you may have problems. This is a fairly narrow range. 52100 is red short and will crumble/crack if forged too hot ( due to iron sulfides), or crack/split if forged too cool ( due to dislocations).

Reducing the heats until forging in the black range as is proposed by some folks is not metallurgically sound at all. I recommend stopping as soon as the blade stops being red-orange. It is gets to dull red, it is probably 300-400° too cool. Think of what the blade looks like at austenitization when doing HT. You want the blade 200°F hotter than that for the bottom of the forging range. Quit there and stick back in the forge for another heat.

Power hammer guys have a great temptation to whack at steel until it is black. This is really bad for some steels - like 52100.
 
FORGE HOT.
The old blacksmith's adage, "Strike while the iron is hot" is good advice. It should be updated for bladesmiths to say, "Strike ONLY when the iron is hot".


I have stayed out of this thread because most folks know my opinion on triple quench and its related techniques.

The one thing I will note is that if you forge a hyper-eutectoid and moderately alloyed steel like 52100 at a low temperature ( as in descending heats), there is a real chance of making dislocations in the thicker areas - AKA the spine. Once made, they will not go away. No amount of forging or normalizing will help once they exist. They will sit there waiting for the quench where the stresses will shear them apart and split the blade right down the center, or crack it vertically. I have seen improperly forged 1095 blades split in half right down the spine. Too fast a quenchant will only increase the problem.

Forging ranges are there for a reason. The forging range for 52100 starts at 2100F and it needs to stop at 1700F....or you may have problems. This is a fairly narrow range. 52100 is red short and will crumble/crack if forged too hot ( due to iron sulfides), or crack/split if forged too cool ( due to dislocations).

Reducing the heats until forging in the black range as is proposed by some folks is not metallurgically sound at all. I recommend stopping as soon as the blade stops being red-orange. It is gets to dull red, it is probably 300-400° too cool. Think of what the blade looks like at austenitization when doing HT. You want the blade 200°F hotter than that for the bottom of the forging range. Quit there and stick back in the forge for another heat.

Power hammer guys have a great temptation to whack at steel until it is black. This is really bad for some steels - like 52100.

I feel like you've nailed it. I've never forged a 15 inch long blade in 52100 before. Obviously (for me) that size takes longer than a small blade. I probably was chasing crookedness out with insufficient heat. I've done this heat treat before on 52100 and has no cracks using AAA oil (not sure where Parks 50 came into the discussion).

Thanks Stacy
 
Stacy has it but I think he simplified things a little too much. I may be wrong but I think slip, vacancies and dislocations(especially edge dislocations) are a necessary part of the forging process. Dislocations don't necessarily mean fractures are present. When dislocations accumulate or "pile up" problems can arise but if you forge hot, the subsequent heats allow the recrystallization process to wipe the slate clean, so-to-speak. I think that is what he is saying.

Sorry Stacy... I just read your post as saying "dislocations are undesirable" and unless I am indeed wrong(wouldn't be the first time) that is not entirely the case.
 
it looks to me like the cracks are from the steel being overheated at some point.did you happen to break the blade in two and look at the grain?

I have forged and triple quenched some where in the neighborhood of 1500 blades from 52100. All are forged at a falling heat, I start forging at about 2000 and finish forging at about 1500. after forging I fully astinize and quench to black in room temp type A three times. then carefully heat to non magnetic and air cool to black twice then heat and cool to room temp. I then rough grind. after rough grinding I do three sub critical anneals at 1325. one of these is probably enough but I like doing things in three. after annealing I grind to 220 grit and have all shaping and profiling done. heat to 1550 and guench with no soak time into 165 degree type A. this is done three times with no temper in between and a 24 hour rest between quenches. then temper three times at 350 to 450 depending on final hardness, again with 24 hour rest between. I have/do on occasion get a cracked blade on very thin knives >.100 at the spine. I also will rarely get some warping. but not severe.

there have been at least two patents issued on triple quenching 52100 for very fine grain structure. cold forging is also a sound metallurgical practice that is used in industry to strengthen parts under high stress ie... shot peening crank shafts and rods in high performance engines. Yes it can be taken to far and cracks/micro cracks will form. cold forging should be followed by a cycling above critical temp to let dislocated grain boundaries nucleate new finer grain in the dislocations. dislocation can also be used to harden metals ie... work hardening.

based on this I find it hard to believe that the OP's cracks are caused by the triple guench.

edit: I am not saying that triple quenching is the only way to make a good blade, or that everybody should be doing so just that triple quenching is a valid technique for hardening medium alloy steels like 52100/5160
 
Bill, I would really look into those patents folks seem to bring up in these triple quench discussions. Seems they are not talking about the same thing we bladesmiths are...

From HFB...

A search of patents on the topics involved yields one that most closely resembles what is pointed to as supporting the claims made, i.e. based on studies done at U.S. Steel Corp, involving 52100 carbide and grain refinement via deviations from the standard single heat to austenitize and quench. Patent No. 3,337,376, Patented Aug. 22, 1967 “Method of Hardening Hypereutectoid Steels”, Raymond A. Grange Township, Westmorland County, Pa., assignor to United States Steel Corporation, a corporation of Delaware, Filed Dec. 27, 1966, Ser. No. 604,640. In his method Grange lays out a process using “pre-treatments which refines the carbides so that the final quench a can be done without concerns for their size or the retained austenite that could result in dealing with them at that time. This resulted in “a martensitic structure with an austenite grain size finer than ASTM #10 and a dispersion of uniformly fine carbides”. But there are two problems- 1. The phase most preferred before the final quench was bainitic or, at the most, a somewhat duplexed structure with some martensite resulting from an up-quench from below Ms to produce the bainite, i.e. the process bears little resemblance to “triple quenching” as described by bladesmiths. 2. The so called “theoretical limit” of grain size 10 is blown out of the water in 1966 at least! Could these, and other tricky points, be the reason that the Patent is often referred to but never entirely identified?

Stickels, while working for Ford Motor Co. followed up on Grange’s work with his study of “Carbide Refining Heat Treatments for 52100 Bearing Steel” In which he demonstrated increases is several areas of bearing performance by the refinement of carbides in the absence of increased retained austenite. Stickels seems to have come up with a more streamlined and effective version of Grange’s procedure using bainite or fine pearlite, with no martensite, as the prior prepared microstructure that is austenitized for the hardening procedure. It is interesting to note that very little in his writing is spent on grain size, possible because he recognized the greater significance of carbide refinement, or ultra-fine grain was mundane enough not to require special mention

Bill, you are a fabulous maker and I have heard nothing but great things about your knives. I just personally think you are doing things that you don't need to do. Your HT regime sounds like it takes 6+ days and a lot of energy... I count approximately 15 heats, not including the actual forging process. Why the 24 hr. waiting periods? What measurable gains in any given property are we talking about here?

ETA...
Please don't look at this as an attack on anyone's character or knives for that matter. I am just trying separate functional precepts from dogmatic ritual.
 
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it looks to me like the cracks are from the steel being overheated at some point.did you happen to break the blade in two and look at the grain?

I have forged and triple quenched some where in the neighborhood of 1500 blades from 52100. All are forged at a falling heat, I start forging at about 2000 and finish forging at about 1500. after forging I fully astinize and quench to black in room temp type A three times. then carefully heat to non magnetic and air cool to black twice then heat and cool to room temp. I then rough grind. after rough grinding I do three sub critical anneals at 1325. one of these is probably enough but I like doing things in three. after annealing I grind to 220 grit and have all shaping and profiling done. heat to 1550 and guench with no soak time into 165 degree type A. this is done three times with no temper in between and a 24 hour rest between quenches. then temper three times at 350 to 450 depending on final hardness, again with 24 hour rest between. I have/do on occasion get a cracked blade on very thin knives >.100 at the spine. I also will rarely get some warping. but not severe.

there have been at least two patents issued on triple quenching 52100 for very fine grain structure. cold forging is also a sound metallurgical practice that is used in industry to strengthen parts under high stress ie... shot peening crank shafts and rods in high performance engines. Yes it can be taken to far and cracks/micro cracks will form. cold forging should be followed by a cycling above critical temp to let dislocated grain boundaries nucleate new finer grain in the dislocations. dislocation can also be used to harden metals ie... work hardening.

based on this I find it hard to believe that the OP's cracks are caused by the triple guench.

edit: I am not saying that triple quenching is the only way to make a good blade, or that everybody should be doing so just that triple quenching is a valid technique for hardening medium alloy steels like 52100/5160

Thanks Bill. I did end up breaking both blades. The grain was very fine but you could see where crack was discolored on the spine side perhaps from heat or oil causing the area to appear stained. Personally I believe in the triple quench 52100. I have some notes, nothing scientific but its my experience with this steel. I've never waited 24 hours between quenches though. Still learning and open minded.
 
Dislocations are present in all steel. They cannot be completely removed except by very specific processes. They can be increased in number and reduced in number. They are responsible for the ductility of steel, not for cracking. As with most things, too many dislocations cause problems, as they start to get tangled up and then things can crack. However, hand forging at proper temperatures is very limited in it's ability to make more. Forging at low temperature can, but will not always, make too many.
 
I really meant fracturing/separation along grain boundaries. This is sort of like a dislocation on steroids. Once the boundaries shear apart, they can't be put back together again without welding heat....and that isn't a guarantee.

My metallurgy is self taught, and I regularly say something backwards or in a less than proper manner. Thanks for you guys keeping me straight.
 
Bill, I would really look into those patents folks seem to bring up in these triple quench discussions. Seems they are not talking about the same thing we bladesmiths are...

From HFB...



Bill, you are a fabulous maker and I have heard nothing but great things about your knives. I just personally think you are doing things that you don't need to do. Your HT regime sounds like it takes 6+ days and a lot of energy... I count approximately 15 heats, not including the actual forging process. Why the 24 hr. waiting periods? What measurable gains in any given property are we talking about here?

ETA...
Please don't look at this as an attack on anyone's character or knives for that matter. I am just trying separate functional precepts from dogmatic ritual.


Rick, I have done a lot of testing on knives that I have forged, comparing blades that have been hardened in different ways. Specifically single quenched vs triple quenched. Triple quenched blade have always come out on top for cutting ability and toughness.

You are right it takes a lot of time to harden a blade nine days actually counting the annealing cycles, this is friggin ridiculous. Believe me if I could make a knife form 52100 in three days that would cut as good as one it takes me twelve days to make I would be doing it. But I have not been able to do so in the fifteen years that I have been making knives so I continue with the multiple quench.
 
Thanks Stacy, your reminder about the forging heat range is spot on!! 52100 is very sensitive to low temp forging.
Thanks Rick for sharing your ht regimen, i plan to use it very soon :)
Quenching with no soak from a spheroidal anneal may not lead to the kind of edge i'm after with 52100, but could be spot on for a skinner
 
Thanks Stacy, your reminder about the forging heat range is spot on!! 52100 is very sensitive to low temp forging.
Thanks Rick for sharing your ht regimen, i plan to use it very soon :)
Quenching with no soak from a spheroidal anneal may not lead to the kind of edge i'm after with 52100, but could be spot on for a skinner

what kind of edge are you referring to? I had photos of one of my edges at 600x. the metallurgist said the edge had very fine chromium carbides layed down the edge that reminded him of a string of pearls. grain size at the edge was 14 and finer. grain size in the unhardened spine was 10 and finer. edge hardness of ~63 but couldn't be measured because the edge was smaller than the penetrator.
 
Thanks Stacy, your reminder about the forging heat range is spot on!! 52100 is very sensitive to low temp forging.
Thanks Rick for sharing your ht regimen, i plan to use it very soon :)
Quenching with no soak from a spheroidal anneal may not lead to the kind of edge i'm after with 52100, but could be spot on for a skinner

what kind of edge are you referring to? I had photos of one of my edges at 600x. the metallurgist said the edge had very fine chromium carbides layed down the edge that reminded him of a string of pearls. grain size at the edge was 14 and finer. grain size in the unhardened spine was 10 and finer. edge hardness of ~63 but couldn't be measured because the edge was smaller than the penetrator.
 
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