Two Quick Questions

afishhunter

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1) Did Schrade or one of their numerous brands (Imperial, Old Timer, Hammer Brand, Uncle Henry, Ulster, et-all) ever have 440C blades?

2) Did Schrade own the New York Knife Co. brand name? (I think they did, but I am not 100% sure.)

Thank you in advance. :)
 
IIRC, the New York Knife Company branding was owned by Smoky Mountain Knifeworks. They did make a series of stag handled knives for SMKW, four folders and one fixed blade. Also, Schrade had Camillus make an anniversary camp utility knife for BSA that used the mark. Pretty sure it was licensed from SMKW if that issue was not, indeed, made for SMKW. I'll let another member answer your steel question.
 
I thought NYKC predated SMKW by a few decades.

I did find a little history on NYKC, apparently when they moved to Walden, NY in the mid 1800's, there was a split that lead to Walden Knife and then Schrade.
NYKC closed up in the early 1930's, during the Great Depression. Schrade then bought the name, but it was left dormant for a while.
Taylor Schrade made a few NYKC and Hammer Brand knives. I don't know if BTI is, or has plans to bring either of those two brands back.
(Hate me if you will, but I think the Taylor Schrade made Hammer Brand Gunboat Canoe I have (4 blades) is a heck of a nice knife.)

I'm asking if Schrade or any of their brands used 440C because a friend has an older Old Timer stockman from the 60's or 70's that he claims has 440C blades.
As far as I know, Schrade only used 440A.
 
I believe all Schrade "Old Timer" knives have 1095 carbon steel.
Therefor, you friend's "older Old Timer stockman from the 60's or 70's" would not have stainless blades.
 
I believe all Schrade "Old Timer" knives have 1095 carbon steel.
Therefor, you friend's "older Old Timer stockman from the 60's or 70's" would not have stainless blades.
Over the years we have found at least a couple of exceptions to the 1095 OT rule. The short-lived 41OT comes immediately to mind for one. Some 7OT knives with a SCHRADE+ Stainless blade would be another.
 
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Oh! And the 19OT, 512OT and...

... Actually, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but it is very possible that the blade of your 152OT could actually be stainless. Because of difficulty with their steel suppliers in supplies and soaring prices, and the demand by stores like Walmart to keep prices down, Schrade did (I believe around 1997, if I remember correctly) begin to do a running transformation from carbon to stainless. Unfortunately, they did this hoping that if the tang stamps were not changed, no one would notice. Being in direct contact with knife enthusiasts on a daily basis, I did advise them that people would definitely know, and that they were making a big mistake. They did not feel that it would be a problem, and I was left "holding the bag", when people would return their "high carbon steel" knives because they were stainless.

This was all very unfortunate and just another of the poor business decisions that contributed to the final downfall of the Company. Quite honestly though, I knew they had switched over a lot of folders, but I was not aware that they had begun doing it with rigid blades. I guess I'm not surprised though, because they knew that if I did know, I would stick my two cents in. Sorry I don't have better news, but I have to tell you that I am disappointed also, because the 152 was always one of my favorites. My only suggestion is, if at all possible, try to locate those knives made prior to the late 1990's, because those will be made as marked. Unfortunately, it is tough to tell by just looking at them.

... Debbie

Debbie, "UH Fan", AKA Ms. Chase was a CSR and historian for ISC up until the very end. So it is quite possible to find most any late produced Old Timer pattern in stainless. Confused yet?
 
I believe all Schrade "Old Timer" knives have 1095 carbon steel.

The following (big) list of Old Timer models were made with stainless for some if not all of their production years. Codger's examples re-listed. "Old Timers are carbon" is an innaccurate generalization at best. "Most Old Timers are carbon" would be more accurate.

3OT
5OT
5OTG - (1996 - 2002)
6OT
7OT - (1995 - 2004)
19OT
34OT - (2002 - 2004)
41OT
43OT
47OT
49OT
53OTG
55OTG
93OT
97OT - (2003 and 2004)
98OT
126OT
140OT
141OT
142OT
143OT
146OT
147OT
246OT
512OT
858OT - (1982 - 1986)
 
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Add the 51OT to that list; I have not heard so far of one in non-stainless steel. There have been posts which identify which stainless steels were used by Schrade, but I have forgotten that information. I try to use the phrase "non-stainless steel" instead of high carbon steel, because most cutlery stainless steels are also high carbon steels.
 
I can add to that list as well:

  • The Old Timer Classics series;
  • The Limited Edition Old Timer that came with the blue tractor.

Plus the End of Days knives that were assembled with a mix-n-match of Old Timer, UH, and Schrade blades.

BUT... I can't recall every hearing of Old Timer knives made with 440C.
 
Add the 51OT to that list; I have not heard so far of one in non-stainless steel. There have been posts which identify which stainless steels were used by Schrade, but I have forgotten that information. I try to use the phrase "non-stainless steel" instead of high carbon steel, because most cutlery stainless steels are also high carbon steels.

"Carbon steel" and "high-carbon stainless" are the terms I use.

Kitchen cutlery, specifically Old Chicago, was marketed as "high carbon stainless," and likely where I picked that up.
 
I found the following old posts in a dark corner of my computer. The first part is started out with a post from 'Codger,' and then Debbie Chase:
"Now that I have thoroughly confused you, and blown long time dearly held ideals of absolute truths, we will look at the steels themselves.
Quote (from Codger, I think):
“High Carbon Cutlery Steel”, at least in the case of Imperial Schrade Old Timers and Uncle Henry knives so blessed, refers to AISI 1095HC. It has a carbon content of between .95% and 1.05%, Magnesium 0.30-0.50%, Phosphorus (max.) 0.040%, sulphur (max.) 0.050% according to ladle samples. “Famous for both it’s edge hold ability and resharpening ease. One of the charactoristics of this steel is that it will darken or discolor with use, especially if used on meats or fruits. Care must be taken with a carbon steel knife to prevent rust. The blades should be kept dry and lightly oiled occasionally.”
Quote:
Originally Posted by Debbie Chase, Schrade CSR 12/06/04
The feeling by many knife users that the rust and discoloration of high carbon steel was an inconvenience was most definitely the reason for the introduction of stainless steel. While most avid users preferred the high carbon steel and honestly felt that the steel wasn’t a good steel until it was seasoned (darkened and discolored) properly, there was always quite a number of people writing in to complain that the steel must be a very poor steel, because they couldn’t slice their apples without it rusting....
“Schrade+” steel was actually a trademarked name used for at least two different stainless steel alloys. First was 440A. Then a change was made to 420HC. As of this time, there is conflicting information about when this change took place, but it seems to have been sometime after the 2000 production year. Stainless steel is just as it’s name implies... it “stains less”, but will still discolor or rust to some extent if not properly cared for. Both carbon and stainless blades were heat treated to 56-59 Rockwell.
Every knife enthusiast/user has their own opinion as to which blade steel is best, and which characteristics are most important to them. I’ll not delve into that can of worms here, but to say that my preference is carbon steel. Whatever your preferences, you should be able to find a carbon bladed Old Timer, or a stainless one, if that is what you like. It just takes some searching. Best clues for a carbon steel Old Timer is to try to get one new in an older package, pre 1997 or so. Or buy one with the beginnings of patina, easily removed if you like shiny blades.
A few later knives were made of exotic metals like true forged stainless (BTO1), ATS34 (Spitfire), CM154 (Original Loveless design), and if I remember correctly, the D’holders were of a custom steel/process (my [Tongueriver] insertion here: It was BG-42).
This is my best effort to flesh out the answer to the question of Schrade steels, borrowing liberally from forum resources. Build on this guys.
EDIT: Recently acquired evidence suggests that 420HC SS was introduced, at least partially, in 1998 when they began using fine blanking on the LB7 production. If it was like most other changes in production, it was not like turning off one faucet and turning on another, the change was most likely gradual, what is called a "running change". And of course there is almost always a lag between when production began and shipping began. -Michael Little
Schrade+ steel: First was 440A. Then, between 1998 and 2000 they gradually went to 420HC. –Codger."
 
tongueriver tongueriver , Thank you.
I didn't think Schrade ever used 440C.

I must admit though, I was unaware that they went from 440A to 420HC.
I thought my USA 7OT and 6OT were both 440A ... not that it matters to me. :)
(I think I bought the 7OT between 1987 or 1988 and 1991, and the 6OT in 2000 or 2001)
 
tongueriver tongueriver , Thank you.
I didn't think Schrade ever used 440C.

I must admit though, I was unaware that they went from 440A to 420HC.
I thought my USA 7OT and 6OT were both 440A ... not that it matters to me. :)
(I think I bought the 7OT between 1987 or 1988 and 1991, and the 6OT in 2000 or 2001)
Remember lag time. I bought a Sharpfinger last week that was dated 1984. A knife we bought from a dealer in 2000 may have been on the shelf in his stock room for several years. Best estimation of production dates come from logos, slogans etc. on boxes and papers. Assuming the dealer or another owner did not swap them.

ETA: Good job mining Cal! Might copy/paste that string in the sticky up top since most of it is buried deep within.
 
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