U.S. Patent vs. International Patent

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Zombie411

Joined
Aug 5, 2017
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Hi all,
In reading threads about "Clone/Counterfeit" knives (no brands mentioned), I have a thought that I would like to bring up.
I am VERY new to collecting, and started with cheap FleaBay brands. Started learning, and found a few better brands. Then low and behold... There are the same knives for hundreds of dollars less???
A little reading, and I find they are indeed rip-offs.
Drat, and double drat!!! Like many here I can't support thieves. I won't even talk to real people that have "that look".

Now to my point. I have two products (non knife related) that I would like to begin producing. Both have been thoroughly researched, and in order to protect the designs - patented!

We all know a US patent is just about worthless in todays global market. One whiff of a new/bold idea, and the overseas sharks swarm in, take the design, and can potentially ruin the developer with poor quality, and mass marketing.
Luckily for some of the ripped off knife makers in the U.S. they have an established name, and will survive.
BUT-------- Why did these "victims" not spend the additional dollars, and gain the INTERNATIONAL PATENT!
That is the very first step in my marketing plan. I am just a dude with no real money, and lofty goals for MY products. It costs approx. $15,000 per item, per search just to see IF they can be internationally patented. BUT... I am willing to pay to protect myself.

Now take an established company that (IMHO) WAY over charges for their products, (meaning I am paying for the brand, and Not the item), and they belly ache when all they ever did was pay the 5k for a U.S. patent?
It's an established part of business in todays global economy. If you can't afford to internationally patent every item you produce, and (IMHO) over charge for) you're in the wrong business!

Just my 2 cents worth, and before the avalanche comes... I'm on your side here. Just asking if anyone else sees this as a valid point.
Also... if you do pay to patent globally, there are still extreme costs involved so you HAVE to have retainers at the least or people in the countries that potentially will infringe.
I have several friends that make a living doing just this. Advocate for U.S. companies overseas, and the vast majority of their clients are single/partner start ups.

Just a late night thought after seeing some of the valid but perhaps incomplete visions of what is really happening.
Please don't hate. Just food for thought.
 
Most knives aren't patented. There's very little new under the sun. Some features may earn a patent.
 
Well... That's kind of my point sir.
If a design can not be held as property... how can one cry foul when someone else makes it cheaper? Especially when the materials are not 100% accurate to the original?

Again, I am not defending the actions of rip off artists. Just trying to see above the smoke.

Take the buck 110. There are hundreds of clones, and many by respected manufacturers but no one cries foul about them. Or the Uncle Henry series... Hundreds of versions from almost as many manufacturers.

I kind of have the feeling that this is more an emotional battle. Like Paris Hilton declaring she is Marylin Monroe incarnate.

I guess I just don't see how anyone can claim an idea is theirs if they can not/do not actually own legal rights to it... globally. What about Copy Right?
I know that a brand, and Logo are copyrighted, and the China knockoffs that infringe there are indeed illegal to import or sell here but a-holes still do.

What I am really talking more about are the brands that use their own name, and branding yet are for all intents the same knife but with different materials. How are they considered "thieves" if there is no ownership of the design?
 
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As far as I know, there is no such thing as an international patent. Patents are prosecuted on a country by country basis, other than some aggregation is Europe.

In addition, the initial cost to file a provisional patent is only the beginning and costs accumulate throughout the patent term. Beyond the direct patent costs, there are legal costs involved as well. Further, not all patent offices work as smoothly as others and patents are often rejected in certain jurisdictions, causing expensive appeal procedures.

Finally, there are some countries where you can go to all the trouble of filing and maintaining patents, and still receive no real protection.

Based on my limited experience in the space, those are some of the reasons that established companies may follow patent strategies that don't include patents in certain areas.
 
Quote: WilsonHome

"As far as I know, there is no such thing as an international patent. Patents are prosecuted on a country by country basis, other than some aggregation is Europe. "

Bottom line is... you are correct but there is a process in place that allows for securing the "right" to patent in all participating countries, and fortunately the countries that are of most concern here, are participating.

http://www.inventionpatentinformation.com/patent-applications
This is just a summation of patenting. There is (of course) much more info out there.

In the dog eat dog marketplace many companies simply reproduce other peoples work. At the same time there are companies that apply for, and receive patents to protect their work in the same countries that are known for "knock offs".

I completely understand that the amount of money to protect ones ideas is daunting at best but I believe it is practically mandatory IF you want a legal base for recourse.
If not... so sorry Charlie.

Now like I am asking... how can a company cry foul if they are not legally protected? Why are some companies, and their legions of followers yelling louder than others?
It is to be expected that your ideas will be taken, and run with. Especially if it is a great idea that is NOT protected.
For example... I was a member of another forum for years. What was happening there was the members would discuss at length better methods to run a process. The amount of brain power per problem was staggering.
The Admin of that site had a vested interest... They were in the business that the forum was founded on. Soooo the company basically "stole" years worth of free product development and spread the bull-crap pretty thick once forum members figured out what was really going on behind the curtain.

It is today a company that is run in/from 3 countries. The people that purchase from them have NO idea what happened to get them rolling but there are some of us that do know.

Same thing I believe applies here... It's more of a butt hurt than a legal issue.
IMHO
 
Were i in your shoes, i would not count much on the information contained on the site you linked. Consult a professional before you spend time prosecuting patents in certain countries and you will find that you can spend all the money you want to to obtain a patent, and it is a lot more than you think, and still have no protection when someone rips off your inventions or designs.
 
I don't know where you got the $15K from, but everytime I hear people filing patents just in Canda they spend $50K+ just in one patent. I can't even imagine what will be the real cost of filing the patent world wide.

Patents and copyright laws are out of date anyways, and need a good shake.
 
Why cry foul? The folks that make the copies are using the makers prior art to sell shoddy products. This devalues the genuine item.

The folks who are willing to make the copies are not stopped by patents or copyrights.

The thieves are stopped by people who shine a light on their shoddy practices and who refuse to but the fakes or support those who advocate buying them to save a few dollars over the genuine item.
 
if you only patent in america the chinese will surely copy it if they so desire. if you do international or in each country you want to file the patent in, then you are safer. they may still copy it but you can then send a cease letter to them i assume. im no expert in this. i just know its a PAIN in the ass to file for patents.

listen to this podcast. Gavin goes over some of the process and annoyances. http://www.modneanderthal.com/podcast-1/2016/9/26/episode-16-gavin-hawk

spyderco on the clones and a bit about the topic of patents in china.
 
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Quote: Mr. Danke42
"Why cry foul? The folks that make the copies are using the makers prior art to sell shoddy products. This devalues the genuine item."

I see this as a fair point but in a certain sense I believe it may help the value of the original.

Example... I begin learning about modern knives. I find the cheap flash, and then discover that there are engineered knives available so I begin price shopping.
Lo, and behold there is THE 400.00 knife I want but it's only 39.99! WOW!!!

Look at that! It has the factory warranty card and all !!
Not being born yesterday I get that feeling that something is amiss.

It's a friggin fake. They even have the nerve to use logos, boxing, useless registration card?

Now I look some more, and find another brand. Hmmm. I see Nick doing some testing... Smashes that b^tch thru a 1/2" MDF table. With a hammer!!!
It still works like new!

I have to get a dozen of those.

Start reading here, and CRAP!!! Everyone hates the player...

I get it. I DO.
BUT where is the line. Do I not support anyone that makes a Bowie because they never had the families permission?
Do I avoid Stock-man style? Stilettos?
Where is the line?

Mr. Ruso,
I was just using easy numbers. I understand the depth of the reality. :thumbsup:

Mr. Mo2,
Thanks for the vid. I'm going to watch it right now.
I'm just trying to gain a grasp on how deep this rabbit hole is. :cool:

Right at the beginning of the video the fella states that the counterfeits WILL give a bad name to the originals. That is 100% given as fact.

What I am talking about are the clones that do NOT use other makers logos or boxes.
You all know the brands I mean. They really only copied the shape of the original but bear none of the branding of the original.
That's the one I have a question about. ALL knife makers borrow design ideas, and make them their own.
There are folders, and fixed! Why is a Schrade not looked at as the evil Case clone?

One last edit guys...
They (spyderco fellas) did mention the copies (not counterfeits) and said themselves.. "It's a problem but not so much"
That's what I am asking here. How far is too far?
 
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Zombie411 said:
Quote: Mr. Danke42
"Why cry foul? The folks that make the copies are using the makers prior art to sell shoddy products. This devalues the genuine item."

I see this as a fair point but in a certain sense I believe it may help the value of the original.

Example... I begin learning about modern knives. I find the cheap flash, and then discover that there are engineered knives available so I begin price shopping.
Lo, and behold there is THE 400.00 knife I want but it's only 39.99! WOW!!!

Look at that! It has the factory warranty card and all !!
Not being born yesterday I get that feeling that something is amiss.

It's a friggin fake. They even have the nerve to use logos, boxing, useless registration card?

Now I look some more, and find another brand. Hmmm. I see Nick doing some testing... Smashes that b^tch thru a 1/2" MDF table. With a hammer!!!
It still works like new!

I have to get a dozen of those.

Start reading here, and CRAP!!! Everyone hates the player...

I get it. I DO.
BUT where is the line. Do I not support anyone that makes a Bowie because they never had the families permission?
Do I avoid Stock-man style? Stilettos?
Where is the line?

Mr. Ruso,
I was just using easy numbers. I understand the depth of the reality. :thumbsup:

Mr. Mo2,
Thanks for the vid. I'm going to watch it right now.
I'm just trying to gain a grasp on how deep this rabbit hole is. :cool:

Right at the beginning of the video the fella states that the counterfeits WILL give a bad name to the originals. That is 100% given as fact.

What I am talking about are the clones that do NOT use other makers logos or boxes.
You all know the brands I mean. They really only copied the shape of the original but bear none of the branding of the original.
That's the one I have a question about. ALL knife makers borrow design ideas, and make them their own.
There are folders, and fixed! Why is a Schrade not looked at as the evil Case clone?

One last edit guys...
They (spyderco fellas) did mention the copies (not counterfeits) and said themselves.. "It's a problem but not so much"
That's what I am asking here. How far is too far?
Click to expand...

I can only answer this with a song.

 
The concept of what we now call "intellectual property" goes back thousands of years to the ancient Greeks who first issued patents. What I find is that people who ask "how deep the rabbit hole is" don't really understand that as far as basic principles go it's a fairly simple issue: "what period of time is appropriate (both morally and in terms of incentive) to allow an inventor to profit solely from their idea before it is better for everyone for the idea to pass into the public domain."

The answer is: stop worrying about freaking centuries old designs and support the rights of inventors. Don't buy ripoffs, counterfeits and clones. In the real world, it's not that difficult a task to pull off.

Now go in peace, my son.
 
Yes sir. That is the moral of the story. No Doubt!

As I started off, I am in a similar situation with putting a product(s) on the market, and a large concern is the rip off artists.

Now I ask this... My product is out for a couple years, I'm making money, my product(s) are in all the right magazines, and on all the right channels.
Now I start seeing them on Ali for thousands less, and they are made of dog dirt. If they bear the brand "Sheet Wee R" non issue (IMHO). I'm still pissed but you HAVE to expect it.
If they bear the brand "Zombie411" then THAT is an issue. A LEGAL issue.

Still not defending any of it. Just bringing up a point that "I" feel needs to be brought up. Why is this not unified complaint going back 100 years in the industry? Or is it?
 
But it is a unified complaint. Every industry, every product that man as a species probably has ever traded or sold. I would bet that 5000 years a go some nugget was selling Ugg's best brand arrow shafts, when really they were just some sticks he found, and Ugg, probably disagreed with that by way of the use of one of Ugg's best brand arrow shafts. The term Patent medicine comes from the fact that they were patented. (the later connotation is just a historic curiosity.

If Raytheon is getting faked parts from their suppliers and there is little that they can do about it, then the only defense is market forces. You have to have the ability to ensure your customers buy your product because they want it, not because its the only option.
 
Yeah... I suppose.
Maybe this is just catching my eye because I am brand new to collecting knives. More specifically, knives that will hold or increase their value.

On a side note...years ago there was a flood of fake champion spark plugs. Lots of engines were damaged due to improper heat ranges.
Now I see the point because to this day, I will NOT buy Champion plugs.

Well maybe I see it... If they were branded as Ugg spark plugs... I would just avoid Ugg.
I'm gonna go stick my head in the microwave now.

Thanks for being tollerant, and polite fellas. I'll get it!
 
Zombie411 said:
Mr. Mo2,
Thanks for the vid. I'm going to watch it right now.
I'm just trying to gain a grasp on how deep this rabbit hole is
Click to expand...
listen to the podcast tho, its more on topic. its actually lengthy and i dont recall the location in the podcast where they talk about patents.
 
Is it a Spyderco podcast? I'll look it up.
They did indeed mention gaining patents in China in the linked vid.
That was one of my main questions.

I have seen Benchmade, and MicroTech counterfeits but I don't think I have come across Spyderco counterfeits yet.

I have seen their clones tho, and that did not seem to important to either of them in the vid. (that there are clones) That's my main point... Clone vs Counterfeit.

Some of these "clones" are getting darn good reviews by some of the top Utube channels. That is what is confusing me.

If a Barlow is a Barlow, and a Stockman is a Stockman, no matter who makes it then why not a knife with a hole in the blade being just another knife with a hole in the blade? Especially when the maker of the clone makes no attempt to claim the non patented / non patentable design...

Unless it IS patented... I don't know.

I'll look more into what the manufacturer(s) have to say, for sure
 
If something is patented, clone vs. counterfeit is a meaningless question. Patent has nothing to do with whether the name brand shows up. An axis lock ripoff is a ripoff whether it has the brand name on the knife or not.

However, just because something is not patented in a particular country does not make it ethically right for a person to rip it off. Furthermore, as I stated earlier, some countries make it more difficult to obtain patent protection and then provide limited enforcement even if you have a patent. Because of this, and combined with the cost, not all companies decide to pursue patents in all countries.

There will always be someone ready to rip off a product. As a buyer, you will just have to decide whether you will support rip off artists or not. Sometimes it is a legal question, sometimes just an ethical one. You will just have to decide where you stand on it.
 
That is the bottom line.

To be completely clear on the subject.
I do not support stealing in any manner. 3 divorces can testify to this

On the other side of that coin... some of these manufacturers have to make their pricing at a better value point for the people that are willing to go the extra mile for them.
When a company can produce a 200.00 product, and still make a sizable profit, there is no need to ask 400.00 for that product.

It's tough to survive in this "modern world" but only as tough as you make it. In fact these are the easiest times in human history for a person to survive.

I know... Bills to pay, 400 people counting on you for their livelihood, 1/2 a dozen governments breathing down your neck.
Lower the price point, and sell millions of units vs thousands of units at a higher price.
Then we all win!

Damn, those knock off's are soo pretty... :mad:
 
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