U.S. Patent vs. International Patent

Zombie411 said:
On the other side of that coin... some of these manufacturers have to make their pricing at a better value point for the people that are willing to go the extra mile for them.
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Quality and materials cost more. You can't have all 3. They do have budget options. The clones are crap knives. Really crap low end materials crap. You can't compare these to the higher end knives at all. And they all have budget offerings some even made by these cloners
 
Zombie411 said:
I know... Bills to pay, 400 people counting on you for their livelihood, 1/2 a dozen governments breathing down your neck.
Lower the price point, and sell millions of units vs thousands of units at a higher price.
Then we all win!
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If they lower their price point to sell "millions" instead of thousands, then what happens to quality? It becomes a game of who can make it cheaper and faster and sell more. That's as far as it will go with no incentive to do anything more for the customer.
These companies work hard at developing their product, procuring quality materials (even proprietary materials they can use exclusively!) For the purpose of building a reputation and a following and that is where the demand for their knives comes from.

Counterfeiting and cloning sucks IMO.
If they can make a good quality clone, then why don't they just make their own knife and compete with the big boys?

Make their own pie instead of trying to take slices from everyone else s pie.:poop:
 
Valid points but Birdshot, Niel the Knife guy, lateBoyScout, ect...
Even Shebaz has discussed them.

Now, they all do mention the ethical aspect(s) while they all admit there is a value for the dollar that surpasses the majority of the China junk that is easily bought for just a couple bucks.

I was simply wondering how much of this is a legal issue, and how much is an ethical issue. Also how much of this can be curtailed on the manufacturers end.
While you could spend more than you make on legal issues, is it not a given that this is an issue that has no solution?
The only hope a manufacturer has is in the loyalty, and education of it's customer base. That brings me back to my previous point... Bring the price point down to where more people can afford the real-deal product, and no one will want the closely priced fake.
I do believe the reason top U.S. brands are building overseas is to do just that. Bring in a more affordable product.

I'm not the brightest person but I am a moral person. I just like to understand the circumstances I have to deal with rather than follow the Lemmings.

If I stated that I was on my way to pick up a hooker, there would be about a 50/50 reaction.
If I stated I was going out to buy a counterfeit Benchmade... Holy Hell.
Who thought that buying a simple pocket knife could carry such a burden. :mad:
 
Sorry for double posting... I didn't see the three posts above mine.

As to better quality materials. How much money in material (alone) is in one knife? 10-15 bucks?
Is not G 10 - G10 no matter what box it is in?
Labor, and engineering costs... China has us beat. Hands down.

So lets assume it costs a total of 50.00 to make one knife (labor/materials/R&D) IF you make 1000 of them. Lets assume 1000 units is the "break even" point. That's 50k invested in one model to develop/manufacture/break even. You just worked for nothing.

Make it $100.00 per, and... 500 units

If you sell for 400.00, your total number of unit sales would be 20 units. Sell for 50k, and it's only one unit you have to sell.

You can only sell so many 50k knives. You can sell more 100.00 knives tho.

I know the numbers are not realistic but it's the point.
It's the outside costs associated w/ design, and marketing that make a 400.00 knife. Not the materials.
 
The fake knives are cheap because they cut corners on materials, & finishing and that results in the end product being compromised. To to that off the folks pushing the fakes have no official customer support. Sure they might list a week grace period to return it if you're not happy but five years from now when something is off kilter they've vanished.

Little fallacies like "they're charging too much so they deserve to get copied" or "they didn't get a patent so they deserved to get copied" get floated here all the time and they've been debunked. Same for your disingenuous devil's advocate style of questions.

The fakes are bad knives; they're poor quality; they damage the hobby over all and there is no upside to them. The only people who really push the opposite agenda are members who are deeply invested in the fake world; people that make a living off selling them online, or reviewing them, or making them.
 
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Danke42 said:
Same for your disingenuous devil's advocate style of questions.
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This is not correct.
There is nothing disingenuous about asking the people "in the know" questions about things they are both passionate, and informed about.

I never once declared that the makers "deserve" anything.
I merely stated my opinion that the price point of many knives available seems a bit "overreached", and I would buy a dozen major brands IF they were more affordable (to a guy like me).

I did ask if these makers had patents or if that legality applied, and was enforced.

Junk is junk. Non issue. Then there is real crap, and something slightly better at a given price point.

Remember Chris Rock in "Next Friday"?

How much for a cup of soda?
$1.85+
How much for 1/2 a cup?
It's the same... You pay for the cup!
Then give me a handful of soda please!
 
LOL...

Ok, Maybe it does appear I am touting or giving slight praise to these clones, copies, counterfeits.
Being Brand spanking new to collecting I am merely going by what I read, and hear on (the net). Must be true right?

That's why I brought up my questions in a direct way in a thread that I can get the answers I needed.

The only threads I have found (so far) are full of adjectives, and usually end with a but-hurt person. Therefore I could not find answers to MY questions.

Now... Perhaps someone could help me find a thread that explains HOW to avoid the counterfeits.
The obvious "shipped from China" is a clue but what about private sales or auctions/CRaigs?

I've bought a few flashy crap knives in the past month, and I'd like to set my sights a bit higher. Name brands either vintage or lightly used at affordable prices.
Reputable dealers... YES. How about a guy looking to score a good deal on a second hand knife? (no I am not hinting anything).
Other than the forum 4 sale, how does a fella know?
 
Buy from authorized dealers.
Check out the exchange here.

The clones are bad, that's why we don't like them. People don't know what a clone is most of the time. Thus why it's bad for all of us.
 
I think your biggest problem at the moment, and one that plagues a lot of those new to any field is that there are a lot of false equivalencies that are easy to reach from a lack of larger context. So instead of asking huge general questions, try to answer smaller ones so that you can gain more clarity. For example there is little point wondering about design rights for "traditional" knives outside of branding and trade marks. But that very same factor plays a huge part in deciding the legitimacy of a modern style knife. Overall there are dozens of factors that one would think are linked, but they may not be, or may not be in the way one would expect.

As for how to avoid fakes? Either know exactly what you are looking for and see the knife in person, or buy off the forum. Any classified or auction listing must be treated as hostile, and unless you are willing to put the work in with regards to returns (and have the right to a refund via a 3rd party) you should just walk away. Its tempting, but not worth the hassle. Each manufacturers sub-forum here has either a fakes sticky, or is a good place to ask questions based specific knives. Item location isn't a good indicator since they may be drop-shipping, or even just shipping from a different location, so no real info there.

When it comes to budget, you can either trade time and effort for a lower price, or get it sooner for more. But at the end of the day, the value proposition has to be your own. Its pretty easy for those who have all the info to price out the "raw" value of a knife, but process, and business practice all add to the overall cost. Ultimately if all you are interested in is the raw cost, then you'll have to roll your own. As with any product, there are factors that are harder to quantify.
 
Thanks Mo2,
I just posted in the BM forum on counterfeits.
I asked how does a newbie know?

Corey replied with 2 links that I have bookmarked. The very first knife in the second link AXIS® Limited Edition Discontinued is one that I bought from a U.S. on line store for under 30 bucks.

I just thought it was a good looking knife, and a good price.
I next went to another thread "how to spot fakes" or something like this... Apparently, a fella like me (new to collecting) does not stand a chance in hell of avoiding fakes anymore than 99% of everyone can walk into a shipyard, and build an Americas Cup yacht.

I'll sit back, and try to gain the experience I can, and leave the sour topics alone for now.
Thank you all for helping me see the depth.. :thumbsup:

Is it appropriate for me to post a like for everyone on this thread? Or is that a bit overzealous?

Mr.GadgetGeek,
Sorry I missed your post.
I think I am getting the idea here.

I sort of thought that Knives had no real value until a month or so ago. That lead to a path of grab whatever is flashy, and that reinforced the notion that there is no real value in this.

Then I found listings for "mint or Near mint" items on the Flea.
That is what led me here to the forum. Then the high dollar knives appeared.
It felt like the secret party room under the night club.

Bottom line is I am learning that I must learn a hell of a lot more.
Thanks!
 
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Likes are a new thing. There is no real way to use them. Use it how ever you like.

Find a knife design you like and then see what it costs if it's over your budget, eat some Ramon and save up. Post in the want to buy forum to see if anyone offers you one. Check out the exchange often for it too, cause they go fast. Before all this do the research about the knife in question. As you already found threads that show differences in clones to the real thing. Youtube is also another resource for that.

Avoid the temptation of the cheap clones. They really are not worth it. Wait until you get some really quality stuff and you'll start to see. I've seen cheap Chinese knives and good high quality Chinese knives, huge differences. If your just opening letters then sure, if your just collecting, clones are worthless and in so pointless to collect.
 
All good Mo2.

One thing (of many) I didn't know is just how many models are cloned.
Just from this thread I found I own one. It's that BM I linked.
I just looked it up, and found the real deal is a 900.00 knife!!! I'd love to handle a real one sometime.
Little wonder I thought it was attractive.

I think for now I'll stick to the mint/vintage stuff. That/s what lead me here in the first place. Researching the auction knives, and what the fair value may be.

Oh yeah, Ramon... Are Dollar Store Ramon Noodlettes verboten? (LOL>>>

Full circle already!
Thanks sir :cool:
 
Mo2 said:
The clones are bad, that's why we don't like them. People don't know what a clone is most of the time. Thus why it's bad for all of us.
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No. Not at all. "We" don't like them because they are clones, and rip off the work of others. If they were good, "we" still wouldn't like them.

I think you are missing the point.
 
Another aspect of clones/counterfeits that makes them unacceptable to me is the FAR too common abuse of workers in the factories. Imagine working for such a low wage (and loooong hours) that its hard to afford the shoddy housing you are pretty much forced to live in.

How about being told that the Benzine you are exposed to daily with inadequate safety gear is "Banana oil" and then you and a bunch of your co-workers develop Leukemia. Then when you are too ill to work, or have lost a hand to an unsafe machine that you were not properly trained on, the company refuses to provide you with proof of employment and without that you can't get workers' compensation.

Could go on and on and on....but I think you get the point.

Edit to add: I realize this is not only happening in counterfeit producing factories, but I would bet it is even worse working in the "off the books" factories.
 
marcinek said:
No. Not at all. "We" don't like them because they are clones, and rip off the work of others. If they were good, "we" still wouldn't like them.

I think you are missing the point.
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there are several points. yes, they rip off design language that is not their's to sell. it gives false pricing to the rest of the market. and people sell them like they are the real thing, ripping people off. to top it off, they can be poorly designed causing damage to the end user. and on top of that, the user may think badly of the original company because of how poor the clone was. or not buy the original because of how bad the clone was.
could add lots more.
 
Mo2 said:
... it gives false pricing to the rest of the market. and people sell them like they are the real thing, ripping people off. to top it off, they can be poorly designed causing damage to the end user. and on top of that, the user may think badly of the original company because of how poor the clone was. or not buy the original because of how bad the clone was.
could add lots more.
Click to expand...

And if none of your additional points listed were true, they still would be ripping others' work off.

Core concept.
 
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So bottom line...
Clones: More a moral issue than legal.
Counterfeits: Legal issue but just as moral.
Are these fair statements to most of you?

Now another aspect.
How far back does this go?
Just sort of a generally accepted era where clones or knives similar to other more famous brands are accepted.
Something like mid 70's knives that copy early 60's brands?
Like Case making a similar knife to the Buck 110. Is this accepted?
Is this even a fair question to ask?

Or is this more of a recent thing where China based companies are being held more accountable due to lesser quality, and extreme price cutting. (design theft is a given here).

Sincere questions fellas.
I plan to enter this industry, (sharpening/manufacturing jigs/perhaps brokering knives that will appreciate in value.
I need to know the ground rules and guide lines.
People tend to listen more to an educated voice.
 
Well it is a legal issue in some instances. A shoe company was awarded a win because the cloned version was almost exactly the same. It was not patented. It really depends. It's a broad topic and cost alot of money to do that. So most knife makers won't take the risks cause the chances of winning are very low if not at all.
 
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