Ugly (but good) Edges Sharpening Freehand

fulloflead

fulloflead

Joined
May 3, 2002
Messages
6,192
I'm starting to get where I can put REALLY sharp edge on really quick at what ever angle I like, freehand, but it ain't pretty!

Here's one example, but it get's uglier when it's a coated blade. You should see what I did to my Microtech Makora Fire Ant! (It's SHARP though!)

I'm getting ready to manually lower the edge on my Fallkniven Garm dagger tonight because the 'systems' don't reprofile double-edge knives very well, so I thought I'd start a thread on this.

I've just gotten used to really uniform, mirror edges on my knives before I started working on my freehand skills again. (Much success on the skills by the way, but not on the edge appearance.)

Would these ugly edges bug you guys if you were getting good performance?



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Wouldn't bother me...but then that's just me. I also have taken up freehanding after watching the Murray Carter DVD. I purchased 3 Japanese Waterstones in 220, 800 and 4000 grit. I got some very nice results and the set up is so easy.

The "Murray Way" is to grind in a new relief angle by essentially laying the blade flat against a coarse stone and grinding away. That WILL scratch up the blade. He then raises up the blade a little bit (one coin) and cuts in the primary edge.

I was impressed at how well it went and have done it successfully on a BM with 440C steel and a Spydie with VG-10 and another Spyder in ZDP-189.

I have, at least temporarily, retired the Edge PRO.
 
A knife blade does not have to be scratched to be sharp.
Bill
 
Looks like the body of the blade is smudged from cutting cardboard and that the ugly edge is that fairly uniform bevel.

Fulloflead,

Make you don't scratch beyond the smallest of bevel areas. You're a fan of autos and Bill there makes some great looking autos, so don't anger the switchblade maker.
 
If you're getting the edge you want, appearance doesn't matter much IMO. But I can share a trick that helped me freehand.

I like fairly acute edges and usually try to cut relief around 10-12 degrees, sometimes less. I find working a knife on a bench stone laying flat to be very awkward. Holding the stone in my left hand and knife in the right (I'm right handed) worked fine for the left side of the blade because I could see the height of the spine above the stone. But working the right side of the blade was a different matter ..... until I came up with the idea of sharpening in front of a mirror. Just watch the spine, keep it the same height above the stone as you were doing on the left side.

After a while I developed the coordination, or maybe it's 'muscle memory', so that I don't need the mirror, except once in a while for a refresher course.

Sharp and pretty really is more satisfying than sharp and ugly. :)

------

BTW fulloflead, I don't think I ever thanked you for your terrific rust prevention experiment. I thought of this just the other day after cutting open a bag of lawn fertilizer with a 440C blade and forget to wipe it off good .... man, does Scott's Turfbuilder with Halts do ugly things to steel! Might be something you could include in any future tests, maybe make a solution and dip or spray the nails or whatever steel you're testing.
 
Dog of War said:
If you're getting the edge you want, appearance doesn't matter much IMO. But I can share a trick that helped me freehand.

I like fairly acute edges and usually try to cut relief around 10-12 degrees, sometimes less. I find working a knife on a bench stone laying flat to be very awkward. Holding the stone in my left hand and knife in the right (I'm right handed) worked fine for the left side of the blade because I could see the height of the spine above the stone. But working the right side of the blade was a different matter ..... until I came up with the idea of sharpening in front of a mirror. Just watch the spine, keep it the same height above the stone as you were doing on the left side.

After a while I developed the coordination, or maybe it's 'muscle memory', so that I don't need the mirror, except once in a while for a refresher course.

Sharp and pretty really is more satisfying than sharp and ugly. :)

------

BTW fulloflead, I don't think I ever thanked you for your terrific rust prevention experiment. I thought of this just the other day after cutting open a bag of lawn fertilizer with a 440C blade and forget to wipe it off good .... man, does Scott's Turfbuilder with Halts do ugly things to steel! Might be something you could include in any future tests, maybe make a solution and dip or spray the nails or whatever steel you're testing.
Click to expand...

Interesting. I like to put the stone on a table or something and use both hands, one on the handle and one on the blade. Where would my mirror go in that case?


Dog of War said:
BTW fulloflead, I don't think I ever thanked you for your terrific rust prevention experiment. I thought of this just the other day after cutting open a bag of lawn fertilizer with a 440C blade and forget to wipe it off good .... man, does Scott's Turfbuilder with Halts do ugly things to steel! Might be something you could include in any future tests, maybe make a solution and dip or spray the nails or whatever steel you're testing.
Click to expand...

Your welcome! How long did the Turfbuilder take to start rusting the metal? I just used salt water because I couldn't think of anything better. This may be better. In fact, if it's easier, I'm MORE LIKELY to do more tests.

.
 
Fulloflead
I wasn't referring to your pictures, but to Tim's remark about "laying the blade flat on the stone." Sorry for the confusion. I think you are doing a great job freehand, and wish more people would learn how to sharpen this way.
I do understand wanting the sharpest edge possible, but people read these "lay the blade flat on the stone" comments, and proceed to ruin the collector value of their knives. If the knife is a user, heck-I don't care if they put it on a bench grinder!
Bill
 
Bill DeShivs said:
Fulloflead
I wasn't referring to your pictures, but to Tim's remark about "laying the blade flat on the stone." Sorry for the confusion. I think you are doing a great job freehand, and wish more people would learn how to sharpen this way.
I do understand wanting the sharpest edge possible, but people read these "lay the blade flat on the stone" comments, and proceed to ruin the collector value of their knives. If the knife is a user, heck-I don't care if they put it on a bench grinder!
Bill
Click to expand...


Cool.:thumbup:

Yeah, I read that book too.;) ...and kept what I liked and forgot the part about laying the knife on the stone.

Strange that now-a-days the 'collector value' is lost once it's sharpened by anything more than a sharpmaker anyway. People don't want to buy 'em unless they have something like their original edge. I'd only freehand my keepers for that reason.

.
 
fulloflead said:
Interesting. I like to put the stone on a table or something and use both hands, one on the handle and one on the blade. Where would my mirror go in that case?
Click to expand...
I'm not sure. Maybe a wall mirror mounted with the bottom edge at the level of the table or bench? For me I decided learning to sharpen freehand with stone in one hand and knife in the other seemed like a good skill to have in the field. So I just go into the bathroom ..... which is also pretty handy if you're using water instead of oil as lubricant.
Your welcome! How long did the Turfbuilder take to start rusting the metal? I just used salt water because I couldn't think of anything better. This may be better. In fact, if it's easier, I'm MORE LIKELY to do more tests.
Click to expand...
I noticed it after about a day, didn't let it go beyond just some nasty discoloration to really rusty. The knife was dry, wiped with a lightly oiled cloth, and the plastic fertilizer bag being unopened I assume didn't have any excess moisture. I'm not sure how useful this would be in testing, but I've never had 440C do anything like that so I imagine there must be something in fertilizer that's pretty aggressive.

I sure wouldn't recommend opening fertilizer bags with an expensive O1 custom and then putting the knife away for a week without cleaning and oiling!
 
Dog of War said:
I'm not sure. Maybe a wall mirror mounted with the bottom edge at the level of the table or bench? For me I decided learning to sharpen freehand with stone in one hand and knife in the other seemed like a good skill to have in the field. So I just go into the bathroom ..... which is also pretty handy if you're using water instead of oil as lubricant.
Click to expand...

You want me to sharpen my knives in the bathroom?
Crack is a recreational drug. You're not supposed to use it all the time.
You're almost as crazy as I am. Almost.

Dog of War said:
I noticed it after about a day, didn't let it go beyond just some nasty discoloration to really rusty. The knife was dry, wiped with a lightly oiled cloth, and the plastic fertilizer bag being unopened I assume didn't have any excess moisture. I'm not sure how useful this would be in testing, but I've never had 440C do anything like that so I imagine there must be something in fertilizer that's pretty aggressive.

I sure wouldn't recommend opening fertilizer bags with an expensive O1 custom and then putting the knife away for a week without cleaning and oiling!
Click to expand...

Too bad they don't sell the stuff in 1lb. bags; I'd like to try it.
Dude, send me a ziploc baggie full of fertilizer?

.
 
LOL!, FOL. When it comes to knives, nothing stands in the way of the relentless pursuit of perfection!

Maybe your wife's(girlfriend's) makeup mirror would be good ..... she might even find a little Norton honing oil better than all that expensive moisturizing shit women use.

I don't think the postal inspectors and homeland security guys would like a baggie of fertilizer going through the mail. I've seen plenty of broken bags at Home Depot, bet they'd give you a baggie full.
 
doesn't bother me a bit as long as they're sharp. I'm a freehand stone kind of guy and have been for years. angle probably aren't perfect but they cut really well. later, ahgar
 
Bill DeShivs said:
I do understand wanting the sharpest edge possible, but people read these "lay the blade flat on the stone" comments, and proceed to ruin the collector value of their knives. If the knife is a user, heck-I don't care if they put it on a bench grinder!Bill
Click to expand...

I had the good fortune to attend Murray Carter's sharpening seminar at the 2004 Blade Show. When he said to lay the blade flat, someone raised the issue of scratching up the knife. Murray's response was something to the effect that it's just a tool and that it was foolish to worry about scratching it. However, it was also clear that he was talking about users, since his point was that you need to re-grind the primary bevel every time you sharpen a flat ground blade, if you want to keep the edge as thin as possible.

And to keep on topic, those edges look just fine to me, FOL.
 
I worked that Fallkniven Garm dagger last night and it came out pretty well. Some areas near the handle it was hard to get for some reason, like the belly of the blade was causing the back of the edge to be lifted up. It's hard to focus on just the back area of the blade with a bench stone.

.
 
dsvirsky said:
Murray's response was something to the effect that it's just a tool and that it was foolish to worry about scratching it.
Click to expand...

Assuming you use it then it gets scratched up anyway, and if you are not using it then why are you sharpening it. Carter thins the primary with each run to prevent edge thickening.

Fikes does the same thing, if you watch him sharpening, he works essentially the primary grind with his hone. Many people sharpen full convex and scandinavian grinds the same way.

If you actually want to, there is nothing but time stopping you from working right up to a mirror polish. Most collector knives can easily be refurbished by the maker anyway to remove any scratches from use/or sharpening.

Fulloflead, those bevels don't look ugly to me, they are way cleaner than the ones I run.

-Cliff
 
Your doing great. I have been telling people learning free hand to, get them sharp first. After you are getting them sharp then you can start to make them look pretty. It's fairly easy to pretty them up just polish the bevels and even them up if they aren't
 
db said:
Your doing great. I have been telling people learning free hand to, get them sharp first. After you are getting them sharp then you can start to make them look pretty. It's fairly easy to pretty them up just polish the bevels and even them up if they aren't
Click to expand...

That sounds like a good plan, too.:thumbup:
One step at a time.

Thanks, guys. I'll post pics of that Fallkniven when I'm done with it.

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