Ugly knife: Part Deux

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Thanks Kevin, I do see where you're coming from. My problem is with the term 'Art Knife'.

I see many knives that are made to be used and are used that I consider a work of art but not a 'Art Knife'.
 
Don and Kevin,
I do not disagree with you there on the gist of your theory- only want to make this point. . A knife which has a focal point on effect, and superficial embellishments as the main emphasis, is usually termed an "art knife".
If you dispute this, ask ddd what he defines it to mean- since he writes the book.

I personally do not feel the array of custom knives seen here daily, by the many makers and collectors who post offer a full performance evaluation, enough to say any knife is better than any other knife. Saying it is a wicked performer might be true, but compared to what standard? There is no standard.

For me if any "custom" knife had true merit or advantages beyond the norm, I would start by trying to beat the Busse company on individual knife tests and destructive tolerances. Take the flagship first, the Battle Mistress. Who can make a better one of these? How better than this production knife, in damascus even better?

Then i'll happily eat my words on the subject. Until then, as far as i'm concerned, much of what we call art is a meaningless distraction.

And i often like ugly knives better than Loerchner pieces.
David
 
The only one who needs to be satisfied with the knives I make, art or not, are the people who by them from me, and me. I want to make the best knives that I can, but I get to decide what that means.
 
2knife said:
I personally do not feel the array of custom knives seen here daily, by the many makers and collectors who post offer a full performance evaluation, enough to say any knife is better than any other knife. Saying it is a wicked performer might be true, but compared to what standard? There is no standard.
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I see you complaining about what you perceive to be a deficiency in the discussion and presentation of knives on this forum. A lot. Like, a whole lot. But I see you doing nothing but complaining. Where is your in-depth performance analysis of your knives? Where is your contribution to setting a performance standard? Talk is cheap. If you're so very into hardcore performance, then why not actually contrbute something along those lines?

2knife said:
Take the flagship first, the Battle Mistress. Who can make a better one of these? How better than this production knife, in damascus even better?
Then i'll happily eat my words on the subject. Until then, as far as i'm concerned, much of what we call art is a meaningless distraction.
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If the Busse is your gold standard, bully for you. But here's what I don't get - if you consider this forum such a waste of time, offering up little more that "meaningless distractions" - why are you here? It's not like you're doing anything to change the landscape - apart from repeatedly bitching about the fact that everyone does not view the custom knife landscape through the narrow straw that you do.

2knife said:
And i often like ugly knives better than Loerchner pieces.
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This I believe completely.

Roger
 
Roger,
You make valid points about me personally.. what can i say, i'm a dog.

It doesnt change the facts about the quesions raised, and I even still enjoy the beauty contest too. And, we have free speech here..

But, there's really no meaning behind it , it's really just entertainment.

Post more ugly knives. I like them. And, i'll try not to bitch so much at Roger or Kevin. (i aint no knifemaker)
David
 
2knife said:
Take the flagship first, the Battle Mistress. Who can make a better one of these? How better than this production knife, in damascus even better? David
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A. Who would want to? (I'm referring to custom makers)
B. Why would they want to?
C. Is the trough large enough for another group?
D. How did a production knife makes its way into the Custom/Handmade forum? I thought there was a special forum for that.

Paul
 
Back about a million years ago I used to ride a horse in my work, he was a working horse, he always got me home, it could be cold and dark, slippery and steep but he always got me home. And he was purty too.
 
2knife said:
Don and Kevin,
I personally do not feel the array of custom knives seen here daily, by the many makers and collectors who post offer a full performance evaluation, enough to say any knife is better than any other knife. Saying it is a wicked performer might be true, but compared to what standard? There is no standard.

For me if any "custom" knife had true merit or advantages beyond the norm, I would start by trying to beat the Busse company on individual knife tests and destructive tolerances. Take the flagship first, the Battle Mistress. Who can make a better one of these? How better than this production knife, in damascus even better?

David
Click to expand...

I'm not a regular here (just a young dumb kid by most people standards) but can I ask one question?

Since when were hard use tasks the only final judgment of a knife's performance standard? Does this mean that every knifemaker who makes custom slipjoints, or heaven forbid, a friction folder, should just close up shop because they aren't making knives designed to be hammered through concrete, or batonned through steel chains?
I'm a newbie knifemaker, and I've not yet made anything to a level of my own satisfaction to show to anyone. But I've never had the desire to make a knife that someone will use in a knife fight, or thought about designing my knives for much more than utility tasks like pruning plants, or cutting cardboard boxes and being used in the kitchen. Are my knives pointless, then, since they're not "tougher" than production knives?

Because I think that, more than any amount of "art-knife prissyness" is something that will keep newer makers from trying to become professionals. I know I can't beat the prices or the consistency of the high end production market yet, but this "hard use is all that matters" mindset is something that makes it hard for me to want to try. What's wrong with _wanting_ to make a small, elegant tool that someone will be proud to carry with them everywhere, or for them to display in their home?
 
I'll answer this as best as I can...

A knife should be built with the final use and zero failure at the forefront of a maker's attention. I wouldn't recommend someone chop their way through some wood with one of my chef's knifes but I think that other than some edge rolling (due to the sharpening angle) it should be able to do it. A desk knife should be able to double as a last ditch fighter, an EDC should be able to do just about anything...... you can make hard use beautiful, look at an engraved 1911... can't deny the hard use background, it's just purty.

I started making knives because I had a blade break on me when I was hunting. I find that the failure of one of the most important tools a man has to be unacceptable. Why shouldn't you be able to prune a bush or fillet someone? One of my best selling fighters is often used as a kitchen utility knife because it's designed to look like that.... until you notice it's 3/16" spine and very pointy butt to crack gourds.

The only thing that keeps new makers from being a professional is the new maker. Why worry about what someone else is making? if you make a great knife at a good price and provide top level service YOU WILL HAVE CUSTOMERS!
 
D. Bostic,
Thought provoking post.
I personally feel the community of custom knifemakers should have the ability to excell over every area of Knifemaking, leading the way, and if not then why?

..but that does not equate to rigorous or "indestructable" for every knife.
David
 
Keith Montgomery said:
Ugly and beautiful are in the eye of the beholder.
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What you said, Keith, is truly a very basic understanding among
almost all of mankind. I really do not understand this thread....

All the best,
David Darom (ddd)
 
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I think (hope) that this whole thread is really a misunderstanding of meaning.

had the thread been titled:

"Simple Knives"
or maybe "unembellished beauty"

the response would have been better.

Every knife I have ever made was beautiful to me at the time.
 
Will Leavitt said:
The only thing that keeps new makers from being a professional is the new maker. Why worry about what someone else is making? if you make a great knife at a good price and provide top level service YOU WILL HAVE CUSTOMERS!
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Even I have customers who want my cheap-ass knives. Okay, so its only 2 right now, but still.


Anyways, I think the real point of this thread is that even the best knife makers turned out some real ugly POS's before they started cranking out the finely polished works they do today. So new knife makers shouldn't quit just because their first piece isn't gonna sell for $500.
 
Ugly and beautiful are in the eye of the beholder.

Right ON.

If 2knife wants pictures of ugly knives, the majority of his collection would fit the bill for some beholder's eyes. "quod ali cibus est aliis fuat acre venenum" or "One mans meate, is another mans poyson"
 
Will Leavitt said:
I'll answer this as best as I can...

A knife should be built with the final use and zero failure at the forefront of a maker's attention. I wouldn't recommend someone chop their way through some wood with one of my chef's knifes but I think that other than some edge rolling (due to the sharpening angle) it should be able to do it. A desk knife should be able to double as a last ditch fighter, an EDC should be able to do just about anything...... you can make hard use beautiful, look at an engraved 1911... can't deny the hard use background, it's just purty.

I started making knives because I had a blade break on me when I was hunting. I find that the failure of one of the most important tools a man has to be unacceptable. Why shouldn't you be able to prune a bush or fillet someone? One of my best selling fighters is often used as a kitchen utility knife because it's designed to look like that.... until you notice it's 3/16" spine and very pointy butt to crack gourds.

The only thing that keeps new makers from being a professional is the new maker. Why worry about what someone else is making? if you make a great knife at a good price and provide top level service YOU WILL HAVE CUSTOMERS!
Click to expand...

I definitely understand the sentiment you're making, and I don't entirely disagree with it. The goal of zero-failure is one I'm aspiring to, but it also troubles me. I don't think a knife should be expected to be capable if withstanding heavy use far outside it's original intended task. To give an example; I'm currently in the process of finishing up two knives, one for use as a small utility/hunting knife, and the other designed for EDC. The former has a more robust tip and a slight recurve. I designed the EDC with a steep hollow grind with a very fine needle-like tip. With this second one, could someone still use it for hunting/heavier duty tasks? Well, I guess so, but I kept it at a higher hardness because of my intended view for it's use. So if someone accidentally digs the tip into something hard or get stuck, like in the joint of a deer, it might snap at that point due to the high stress over the thin cross section. Did I make a "bad" knife?
In my mind, no. If a person used the knife for it's intended purpose, which is light cutting mediums(paper, cardboard, ect.) I don't believe it will fail them.
But I'd just have to pray they never tried to pry with it.

(also, if there's still an insistence on seeing ugly knives, I'll go out into my shop and take a few pictures this weekend.)
 
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