Ultralight or Survival Kit?

B

beef

Joined
Feb 15, 2004
Messages
680
Hi all,
I've been pondering the different names we give activities and wondering whether the names impact people's perceptions of them.

For instance, if someone were to take their Survival Kit, or BOB or mini kit etc out to test it on a trip, few on the numerous survival related forums would think them the worse for it. Yet when reading about ultralighter backpackers going out with the bare essentials they need in their tiny backpack, the terms "unprepared, unsafe and risking distaster" often follow.

But surely in reality the Survival Kit that bushcrafters take out and the ultralight backpack are the same thing: The minimum equipment carefully chosen to ensure survival.
Infact many of the contents of the two kits are the same: opinels/ mora, firesteels, space blankets, tarps etc.

It seems that there is a stigma attached to both "Survival" and "Ultralight". On some ultralight pages, writers turn their nose up at the mention of survival topics, while on certain survival pages, ultralighters are chastised as being inexperienced or worse.

The thought first came to me when I watched Francis Tapon's Youtube clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8A_7ko0an4
for those of you unfamiliar, he yoyo'd the CDT trail, walking for a total of 7 months, some through severe snow with only 6lb of gear.

If we're to slap a label on his achievements, it could be branded as either a 7 month trip with a 6lb ultralight pack, or a survival kit. In my mind, the guy had the skills necessary to back up his limited equipment.
Is there a difference between Ultralight and Survival? I mean survival as we practice it: going out into the woods and intentionally relying on buscraft skills.

I'm interested in other people's perspectives on survival/ ultralight and the notions each term carries with it.
Apologies if I appear to be too far up on my high horse about this one :D
 
i definitely agree with both of your points and have noticed them mself... a lot of "ultralight" enthusiast's rarely seem too concerned for the "what if scenario's".. had an emergency happend, an extra layer or some matches could save a life..:)
i personally would much rather pack a few extra item's and feel reassured, than risk not having an item when i needed it..
as for gear, i think i'm right in the middle.. i pack the necessary gear and then add the luxary items.
 
I think the difference is that we pack our survival items for short day hikes where we might unexpectedly have to spend the night out, etc. The ultralight guys intentionally set out on longer trips with minimal equipment.
 
Wow, now that's a list that really makes you re-think what's essential...

Interesting, no compass, and only a mini-sak for knives/tools.
 
beef said:
http://www.francistapon.com/Travels/Continental-Divide-Trail/CDT-Gear-List
Click to expand...

Thanks, for some reason my browser wasn't working correctly. I guess I have an older version.
Two things I can think of right off the bat as being different between the two schools of thought are that Ultralighters tend to stay on trail where as some of us prefer to go off trail. That requires a compass and good boots, something most ultralighters don't have. The second thing I can think of is that ultralighters only pack what they're going to use where survivalists tend to carry emergency gear that is more than likely not going to be used and things like knives and hatchets that are capable of making OTHER things to use.
I understand your point though and in the end you should always hike your own hike. A good knife and a compass are no brainers to me but I'm not going to say that the guy is an idiot for only carrying a SAK classic.
 
Yvon Chouinard said `If you take bivouac equipment, you will bivouac'.
I totally agree with this statement within the context of alpine climbing.

But I don't like ultralight hasting style.
I like excess toys and leisure time :)
 
It is all about the brain. If you have reasoning skills, the knowhow of your equipment, vegitation, dangers and what is required for survival, it is one thing. Taking a small survival kit and putting it in the hands of a mall ninja can produce bad results. IMO, survival of the fittest. If you go into the woods for recreational purposes with insufficient gear to survive and you die, it's your problem. Why is it anyone else's job to get worked up about it?
 
beef said:
Is there a difference between Ultralight and Survival?
Click to expand...

Yes.

Survival, is the sense that your talking about isnt a way of doing things, Its not like bushcrafting, or ultralight hiking. Survival happens on ultralight or even sometimes bushcrafting outings.

If your a survivalIST, thats a little different.

The thing about different forums going on about either style of camping/hiking sounds like a bunch of Internet loonies to me. If you have been hiking ultralight for ten years, I think your ok. Even this guy you've been talking about carried gear to cover essentials. Which is really all you need once you've spent alot of time in the woods. Even with that said, you never NEED anything, sure a firestarter, a knife, a tarp cup and firstaid kit come in handy, when it comes down to it, with training, anything can be improvised. While improvising is not Ideal in most cases, it can be done.
 
Fonly said:
, you never NEED anything, sure a firestarter, a knife, a tarp cup and firstaid kit come in handy, when it comes down to it, with training, anything can be improvised. While improvising is not Ideal in most cases, it can be done.
Click to expand...

This is one of the best statements I have heard in a very long time on the subject... its a great quote.
 
Hi Fonly. I used the term Survival in the recreational pursuit sense, which is what it is becoming. Some even call it survivaling, others bushcraft. Regardless, it's going out into the bush and playing with knives.
 
To my mind both are just gear freaks that want to be somewhere else.

A good example of an ultralighter to me is the daypack trekkers in the Lake District. Don't get me wrong, the Lake District is a very pretty place. Yet many of the people going to the lake district stick to human-cattle tracks, puff and pant their way round a hackneyed route, just so they can claim they've bagged X. They take minimalist gear 'cos they feel a need for nothing else, and for the overwhelming percentage of the trip have been constrained to a vision of rocks or shale that is the floor directly in front of them. When they do get to a summit there is usually bugger all there save some man made indicator of the apex. And frequently the summit is as featureless, bland and boring as the surface of the moon. Yet the view is good. The green of the trees, the rivers, and the wildlife is mostly occurring not where they have chosen to be at all. They can see it from there for a while, perhaps while they enjoy a sandwich and a flask, but by nature most of the interesting nature is somewhere else. These ultralight hill baggers usually mock and scoff a people they believe to be overloaded. No place for spotting scopes, or a jacket that is actually good to be inside if the weather is foul for hours on end, and woe to ye of the muted tones that wants to blend in to the environment. Yeah, don't get me wrong the Lake District can be awesome, but the way many of the zealots approach it with the ultralight mentality is just too freakish for my taste.

The neo-bushcrafters / survivalists I find every bit as odd. This might ruffle a few feather but ho hum, kinda used to that: One of the reasons I returned to this forum after a while of absence was to get away from the gear freak reenactment-merchants in the UK. The neo-bushcraft / survival movement had become every bit as gear obsessed as the bad old days of the dug in survivalist in a bunker waiting for some armageddon. The gear changed, and instead of being obsessed with big saw back hollow knives they became obsessed with saber grinds. Their idols changed, and instead of worshiping at the the conflict based alter of Rambo they switched to Morsdickheadski [pic a prophet] with his frankly absurd claims about knives and deeply suspect advise about banging them into trees and standing on them .etc. Same meat different gravy. It's all about the gear. Some don't see that, finding that somehow dragging your own bit of highly flammable wood with you and taking a specially made metal rod and just the right type of rock to bang it on isn't kit whereas taking a super high tech lighter and a squirt of lighter fuel is. An obsession with sackcloth a wool tunic and tools of yesteryear is just as much kit freakery as being obsessed by NASA moon suits. I turned up on an American forum in the hope that because there is wilderness perhaps that would be somewhat diluted, but it doesn't seem to be the case very often. Time and again I see things such as overbuilt military type packs that are designed to be worn with webbing, armor, and a helmet, and not for comfort in the civilian being dragged around full of the latest tinternet goodies because a survival situation might break on a walk the length of which I take the dog each day before breakfast.

As I see it the ultralighters and the neo-bushcraft / survivalists are as bad as each other. They are both totally controlled by gear, trends, and swarming behavior. To my mind neither has any more lofty position than the other. I believe what these people go through is a kinda dug in mentality that arises through repeatedly chasing round the tiny weeny with like minded people. Sooner or later their wolds become very limited. There are only a few types of kit that can be taken because of the latest gossamer weight X has arrived now. There are only 4 or so types of ax worth considering of all the axes on the planet regardless of how you profile one not in the ascribed set it'll never work brilliantly. It's all just bollox. At the beginning of next month I shall be doing a week on Dartmoor. While I'll be aiming to keep my load down for that walkabout ultralight kit thoughts will be far from my mind. Similarly, I won't be lamenting not buying a new jet-noodle burner that can burn the arse out of a pan in a couple of minutes. I'll stop when I want to drink too rather than suck on a nozzle. And I'm not even the slightest bit excited about what I will use to make a fire. I guess it is easy for me as relatively field independent to look at the swarms that surround ultralight and neo-bushcraft / survivalism and see them as funny for the gear locked commonality they share. The fact that either camp would see fit to flick poo at the other camp just funnier still.
 
baldtaco-II said:
To my mind both are just gear freaks that want to be somewhere else.

A good example of an ultralighter to me is the daypack trekkers in the Lake District. Don't get me wrong, the Lake District is a very pretty place. Yet many of the people going to the lake district stick to human-cattle tracks, puff and pant their way round a hackneyed route, just so they can claim they've bagged X. They take minimalist gear 'cos they feel a need for nothing else, and for the overwhelming percentage of the trip have been constrained to a vision of rocks or shale that is the floor directly in front of them. When they do get to a summit there is usually bugger all there save some man made indicator of the apex. And frequently the summit is as featureless, bland and boring as the surface of the moon. Yet the view is good. The green of the trees, the rivers, and the wildlife is mostly occurring not where they have chosen to be at all. They can see it from there for a while, perhaps while they enjoy a sandwich and a flask, but by nature most of the interesting nature is somewhere else. These ultralight hill baggers usually mock and scoff a people they believe to be overloaded. No place for spotting scopes, or a jacket that is actually good to be inside if the weather is foul for hours on end, and woe to ye of the muted tones that wants to blend in to the environment. Yeah, don't get me wrong the Lake District can be awesome, but the way many of the zealots approach it with the ultralight mentality is just too freakish for my taste.

The neo-bushcrafters / survivalists I find every bit as odd. This might ruffle a few feather but ho hum, kinda used to that: One of the reasons I returned to this forum after a while of absence was to get away from the gear freak reenactment-merchants in the UK. The neo-bushcraft / survival movement had become every bit as gear obsessed as the bad old days of the dug in survivalist in a bunker waiting for some armageddon. The gear changed, and instead of being obsessed with big saw back hollow knives they became obsessed with saber grinds. Their idols changed, and instead of worshiping at the the conflict based alter of Rambo they switched to Morsdickheadski [pic a prophet] with his frankly absurd claims about knives and deeply suspect advise about banging them into trees and standing on them .etc. Same meat different gravy. It's all about the gear. Some don't see that, finding that somehow dragging your own bit of highly flammable wood with you and taking a specially made metal rod and just the right type of rock to bang it on isn't kit whereas taking a super high tech lighter and a squirt of lighter fuel is. An obsession with sackcloth a wool tunic and tools of yesteryear is just as much kit freakery as being obsessed by NASA moon suits. I turned up on an American forum in the hope that because there is wilderness perhaps that would be somewhat diluted, but it doesn't seem to be the case very often. Time and again I see things such as overbuilt military type packs that are designed to be worn with webbing, armor, and a helmet, and not for comfort in the civilian being dragged around full of the latest tinternet goodies because a survival situation might break on a walk the length of which I take the dog each day before breakfast.

As I see it the ultralighters and the neo-bushcraft / survivalists are as bad as each other. They are both totally controlled by gear, trends, and swarming behavior. To my mind neither has any more lofty position than the other. I believe what these people go through is a kinda dug in mentality that arises through repeatedly chasing round the tiny weeny with like minded people. Sooner or later their wolds become very limited. There are only a few types of kit that can be taken because of the latest gossamer weight X has arrived now. There are only 4 or so types of ax worth considering of all the axes on the planet regardless of how you profile one not in the ascribed set it'll never work brilliantly. It's all just bollox. At the beginning of next month I shall be doing a week on Dartmoor. While I'll be aiming to keep my load down for that walkabout ultralight kit thoughts will be far from my mind. Similarly, I won't be lamenting not buying a new jet-noodle burner that can burn the arse out of a pan in a couple of minutes. I'll stop when I want to drink too rather than suck on a nozzle. And I'm not even the slightest bit excited about what I will use to make a fire. I guess it is easy for me as relatively field independent to look at the swarms that surround ultralight and neo-bushcraft / survivalism and see them as funny for the gear locked commonality they share. The fact that either camp would see fit to flick poo at the other camp just funnier still.
Click to expand...

Well put, I think its annother case of marketing taken over thinking ability. If your an ultralighter, go ahead, have fun and hopefully we will see you on the other side. If you concider yourself Survivalist, same deal.
Guess the point it, get what you want, go out and enjoy the trek based on what you get from it, not what someone else tell you to.
I have been doing this on and off since I was 8 or so. I have 3 modes, ultralight day trip, extended back pack and pickup truck full of camping gear. The one I choose to use depends on what, when and where I am going, nothing more.
Get out and enjoy it

Oh, and don't throw rocks t the other guys, it ain't nice
One of the few things my momma told me that stuck, "If you don't have something nice to say, STFU"
 
So, I'm looking for the latest-greatest ultralight bushcrafter LED flashlight for my commuter survival kit that I keep in my car. What is the coolest, most popular light thses days? Also, what is the best knife?

OK, I jest. I see beef's pondering regarding the differences between an ultralight backpacker attitude and a recreational survival-type camper attitude. No matter what yo do or what you call it, there will be people that have some sort of stigma associated with whatever term you use. Bottom line is do what makes you happy, use what gear you like, and call it what you want.
 
Aside from Baldtaco's rant about folks - come now Mor's ain't no saint, but his books are respected - there are a few things that I agree in its premise.

First - the ultralighters, the bushcrafters, the hunters, the fishermen, the car campers, the overloaded base campers - they are all folks who have come to the wilds to enjoy it. The biggest difference is the type of activities they expect to engage in while out there.

Since all these folks enjoy different kinds of things, then it makes a whole lot of sense that they select different types of gear. Anyone in any of these categories has the fair right to snub their nose at overcomfident newbs trying to do what they are doing but with insufficient equipment or knowledge. Starting to look down their nose at other groups who may be equally experienced as them but have different gear choices suited to a different activity goal is rather silly.

Its not too uncommon on this forum for folks to claim that hiking without a gun is a silly thing to do. Except for when I'm hunting, I have never hiked with a gun. The circumstances under which I've hiked without a firearm were such that a firearm is not necessary so it seems like a silly thing to do. Mind you, if my intent of getting out there was to go plinking then bringing a gun suddenly becomes a pretty good piece of kit to have.

By the same token, I tend to lug a two pound SLR camera with me and even drag around a little tripod at times. Lots of people can think I have a screw loose for doing so since I could have a ultra-slim pocket camera to take pictures. Yeah, they take pictures, but doing that is not the kind of photography that appeals to me and I do what I do.

Similarly on BT's rant. Some folks really just like to travel far, fast and light. They get a high from distances traveled and true they may not appreciate the springs, lakes and trees they cross. They certainly aren't going to fall into a crouch and crawl from tree to tree trying to get 100' closer to a deer - taking 25 minutes to do so. They are going to scramble up steeper rock ledges and look for short cuts.

I'm not even really sure that the basic equipment needs have as many similarities as what people suggest. True there are common human needs: shelter, water, fire, food, navigation, communication etc but there are also many, many approaches in gear choices to satisfy those needs. Some only require foraging the natural environment while some might take as an etiquette the latter activity as depleting natures resources.

For myself, I know personally that I take too much stuff. Part of it is the survivalist mindset, but also part of it is that survival gear is kind of my little play schtick. I mean, I know I'm kind of a weirdo because when I walk into an outdoor store with a group of guys - they all head off to the coats/clothing/tent sections and I head off to that little aisle with all the camping gidgets where the emergency blankets, firestarters, compasses are. They see that aisle as the equivalent of dollar store crap and I think it is a treasure trove of toys. That and I always have at least 3 knives in my pack where ever I go....

So to each his own I say. As long as you enjoy the outdoors, respect nature, don't begrudge paying park fees, don't poach, don't pollute, and allow other fellow outdoor enthusiasts their space and privacy to enjoy the same environment - you are fine by me!
 
In my experience all internet forums breed groupthink and a materialistic gear focused approach.

Just last night I was reading the latest flashlight thread, and a few minutes later found myself pricing new ones. Then i realized...I have satisfactory flashlights, maybe they aren't the best, but they're good and do everything I want them to do. My life isn't going to be better if I find one that does 20 more lumens or 15 minutes more battery life. :rolleyes:

Instead of reading about flashlights on the internet maybe I should go outside and use the ones I have!

I've found myself doing the same kind of thing in different hobby forums.
I'm a member of candlepower forums, but only visit occasionaly, I dont' want to get sucked in.
 
Joben said:
In my experience all internet forums breed groupthink and a materialistic gear focused approach.

Just last night I was reading the latest flashlight thread, and a few minutes later found myself pricing new ones. Then i realized...I have satisfactory flashlights, maybe they aren't the best, but they're good and do everything I want them to do. My life isn't going to be better if I find one that does 20 more lumens or 15 minutes more battery life. :rolleyes:

Instead of reading about flashlights on the internet maybe I should go outside and use the ones I have!

I've found myself doing the same kind of thing in different hobby forums.
I'm a member of candlepower forums, but only visit occasionaly, I dont' want to get sucked in.
Click to expand...

Hear, hear.....Disregard all I said in my earlier post about flashlight geeks. They really are freaks! :D :D :D
 
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