Umnumzaan, Strider SNG or Mercworx Lachesis?

It's foolishness to sit behind a computer and say for 100% certainty that a SNG bests a Sebenza in such a vague tyerm as "Stoutness". One is better in some areas, one is better in others. That's all there is to it

I would be happy to discuss this on the phone, in person, or in whatever other modality might be desirable. In the context of a knife forum, sitting behind the computer is what we are doing, though. Sitting behind the computer and making comments.

It is true that my comments are colored by personal experience as a user. I am not speaking from the perspective of a materials scientist or an industrial engineer. Most of my engineering experience is confined to statics as used to evaluate building systems.

So... I am trying to keep this relatively simple; which as posed by O/P, I think it is. :-)

My perspective on folders is that they are general cutting tools. An effective blade is inherently fragile, because it needs to be slender enough to cut well, and it needs to be hardened beyond its structural strength range. If we were going to design a folding breaching tool that did not need to cut, we could relax the cutting parameters and end up with a much more robust tool.

Just slicing things with any of these knives is not going to come close to inducing structural failure. So in that sense, they are all over-designed, and they would all perform much better if material was removed from them. As you step off the basic cutting path and start to pry, or perhaps force the knife through a sheet of material and twist it, etc., significant loads start to develop.

This isn't rocket science. You just trace the load path into the knife and find the weak link. In the case of a Large Sebenza, the tip of the blade is going to fail at a pretty low threshold laterally. But it has a much better cutting geometry than the SnG. So a Sebbie isn't very good for opening paint cans, or even prying heavy staples out of a drawing set. I could do either of those all day long with a 0.20 Game Warden, though.

Next thing would be a higher load farther back on the blade. If it were lateral, the blade itself might fail. If it were axial or torsional, the pivot starts to present itself as the weak link.

I think of the stop as part of the pivot. Either way, axial loads continue past the pivot into the stop and/or lock, depending on direction. All of these load paths can be demonstrated either mathematically or with physical testing. It's easy enough to see where the weak links are for a given load path.

You are correct that I'm not considering much in the way of dynamic loading - largely because I don't use folders this way. The kinds of things I might be inclined to do with a pocket-sized knife are more like prying and twisting with the first 1/4 or maybe 1/3 of the blade. Increasing those forces too much is going to result in blade failure. So you're back to cutting geometry vs. prying capability - until you switch blade materials.

I don't have any Striders in S30V. I've also never done anything with either the Striders or my CRK's that caused any sort of failure. Just based on my experience with use and sharpening, my guess is that a Sebenza blade would be more inclined to chip along the edge due to moderate impact loads than the SnG would; but that is just a guess.

So anyway... considering a general scope of use for folding knives, and moving out into some more potentially damaging but still rational areas of use, I think it's perfectly reasonable to characterize the SnG as "stouter" or "more robust" than the Sebenza. And conversely, the Sebenza performs better than the SnG at basic cutting tasks, and will continue to do so over a long period, owing to its grind geometry.
 
I think it's perfectly reasonable to characterize the SnG as "stouter" or "more robust" than the Sebenza.

FYI, here are a few pics borrowed from SoLo's picture gallery. Does the Strider SnG blade (on right) really look significantly stronger at the tip than the Sebenza (on left) to the point that you can say that the Sebenza will fail first? Can you say that Sebenza will fail before the SnG not knowing outside variables like heat treat, what the knife is cutting, at what angle it's being cut in each case? Not conclusively, IMO.



IMG_6081.jpg



Which knife looks stouter in this picture below? Sebenza on left and SnG on right. Looking at this pic which total package would you bet on to take more abuse? Would you make a wager on your pick? I wouldn't be certain of either being a winner to the point I would feel comfortable wagering on one or the other. I certainly couldn't make an absolute statement that one is superior.


IMG_6044.jpg


I can honestly say that in my experience I cannot pick a winner for "stoutness"... although I can guarantee you that they are both great knives!!!!
 
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In my opinion the Mercworx shouldn't be compared to the Umnum and the Strider
I agree with tjsulli790. As for the Umnum and the SNG they are both great folders. If its possible you should try to handle each one before making a decision. The SNG has a wider handle and feels "beefier".
 
Put a WTB on the exchange section of this site or look on that famous auction site. The knife comes in 3" and 3.5" blades also.

Be prepared to spend $500+ on a very good day for a production ground blade, and $800+ for a hand ground blade ona good day.

They are great knives. I have 2 of the production ground blades purchased in the exchange section of this site and prefer them to the SnG's and Sebenza's I have owned.
 
I have an Sng and a Zann.

The Sng is just a down and dirty design. It’s very light and extremely rugged.

The Zann is no doubt every bit as tough, but is better finished and more traditional.

Either knife is very capable.

Which blade shape and overall design do you like best?
Get that one.
 
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What is the difference betwwen production ground and hand ground blade, is one better?

Hand ground has hollow grinds and carries slightly more thickness at the tip. Production ground has flat grinds.

You obviously pay extra for the labor of the hand ground blade. I bought mine as users, so the production ground versions are what I sought out. Paying extra $$ for hand ground doesn't mean a thing to me, it lends no perceptable advantage to the knives performance IMO.

Others prefer the "connection" to the knifemaker that a hand ground blade gives and are willing to pay extra for it. I can respect that, but not enough for me to pay the extra when the price is hundreds of $$ more.
 
Ok, thanks for clearing that up. I think I will go for the Umnumzaan since they are available now. If Hinderer begins to take more orders I will try to get on the list for a XM-18 Red G-10 Flipper. I am gonna put the Umnumzaan through hell and I'll let you know how it holds up in a few weeks.
 
Al,

Based on my experience EDC'ing a Large Regular Sebenza with a factory swedge, I'd say the blade tip is disproportionately weak to the rest of the knife, and is definitely a limiting factor in some uses. Of course it also cuts relatively well, and I think it's a pretty good overall balance.

I have a little bit more faith in the tip of my Small Regular sans swedge. There's definitely a bit more material toward the end. My Large Tanto has way more beef near the tip, but is not as good for all-around use.

Yes, I do think the SnG blade is generally more robust than the blade on my Large Regular.

The pivot/lock assembly is a bit more complex. One thing I'll say on this topic is that if I were going to design an EDC knife more around "stoutness" than my Large Regular, I would start with the basic Sebenza platform and beef up the pivot/lock/stop and primary grind geometry. Next step would be to change the blade material. As has been mentioned in other threads, I think it would be cool to have a Large Sebenza modified in this fashion with a few interchangeable blades. The pivot mod's really have no downside, so might as well have them all the time. It would be interesting to have three different "stoutnesses" of blades though - one off-the shelf CRK, maybe one from Krein or Dozier and then a flat-ground or convex blade in INFI.

Paul
 
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