Unbiased opinion wanted on junglas vs rtak2

Yonose

Yonose

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Jul 10, 2017
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I own several rtak2 knives, and have confidence in Ontario’s heat treat on 5160. I’ve recently come across someone claiming that esee or rowen conducted a bend test where they took the junglas to 90 degrees and it sprang back to true. I couldn’t find this test anywhere, but it has me wondering if well ht’d 1095 could perform such spring style action.
 
If you go to the Junglas page on ESEE's website, they have a bending test of the Junglas. It takes a great deal of deflection before breaking, but there is no test of deflection and springing back to straight (or not.)

There are a lot of variables in any "spring test." Bending to yield (not returning to straight) or to breaking (if the material is brittle) depends on the "thickness" of the material and the radius of curvature. For example, you can take a thin piece of music wire a few feet long, flex it such that the ends are pointing 90 degrees from each other, and it will easily come back to straight. But try the same thing to a piece only a few inches long and it will not return to straight. So, if one were to test the Junglas, you would need to specify how much was clamped in a vise and how much of the other end you "held", and how you held as well, to say how much you could deflect it before it bent or broke. Further complicating the issue is a knife is usually not a uniform piece of material, and the point is smaller and "weaker." By this I mean that if you clamped only the first 1/2" or so of the knife in the vise in an effort to flex the longest piece you could, then you would surely bend or break the point. In other words, saying someone "conducted a bend test where they took the Junglas to 90 degrees and it sprang back true." is not enough information.

Having said all that, I cannot imagine any test where a knife that had reasonable edge holding hardness and a reasonable length could be distorted such that the two ends formed a 90 degree angle and expect it to return to straight.
 
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thanks for the rational, common sense reply, Gun Doc. I'll send my firearm questions straight to you! I've been satisfied with rtak's level of flexibility and edge-holding ability. Last night i batoned and chopped through an unknown hardwood shrub which has previously chipped a bk9(on several occaisions) and a s-7 blade(possibly more of a roll, and likely due to the thin profile I had on the blade's edge) with no edge damage to speak of. Experiences such as this, plus my lack of ownership of the junglas, leaves me biased toward the rtak. Ive often been tempted to try the junglas, but the rtak2 keeps surprising me(plus its affordability.) I don't see Rowen magically altering 1095 to surpass even Becker's well regarded 0170-C(hope I got that right).
The rtak2 never seems to give up, and though it doesn't hold a shaving edge long at all(as expected for 5160 having less carbon), it holds a wood-working edge until the job is done and I'm resting by the fire for the night, and probably through the next day as well--but I sharpen tools before sleeping as a discipline.
 
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I saw the video, and the junglas snapped in half with the sharpened point shooting out of the vise. It’s often repeated that blades longer than 9” should be made from something like 5160, s7, or L6(?). Blades like the bk9 are at the upper end of the length limit for 1095(I don’t know how much 0170-c deviates in its properties from 1095.) I’m never hesitant to chop away a hard knots with my rtak, knowing it won’t chip, hasn’t ever— even after hitting steel, granite, etc. It does need sharpening after use, but this takes minutes. The steel may be called soft by some, but its almost always what I use to break down hard wood lately. The thin profile sinks deeper than Ontario’s 1/4” choppers as well.
 
Well, the BK21 is a good bit longer than 9", is 1095 Cro Van, and you don't find many reports of those failing. The experts will tell you it is more about the heat treat than it is about the steel, assuming of course it is one of the suitable steels. My sense is that 5160 is a good one for "impact" uses such as chopping and batoning, but honestly, mine is a VERY uninformed opinion.

To be honest, I don't do a lot of chopping, because I don't do it enough to be good at it. As such, I know I am more "dangerous" than a skilled user. For me, if I cannot do the job in a few hard chops (chops carefully done such that any glances or misses don't end up in the wrong place!), I find a saw. Saws are not as "fun" or "cool." After all, "anyone" can use a saw. But they get the job done. Having said all that, batoning makes a lot of sense for me. For me that is a much safer and controlled action. So, I'm all for hard use knives, but more for batoning than for chopping.
 
I don’t own a bk21, but I do have bk20,29 and ther are quite a bit bigger than the bk9! The truth is, I rarely use a chopper to chop anything bigger than a sapling. I sometimes use the word chopping to describe cutting a log along the grain, before batoning it, or de-limping a log. Going across the grain with a chopper on hard, mature wood just isn’t fun at all, or worth the effort imo. Even the best portable saws are cheap enough to justify the amount of labor they save. However, they often aren’t big enough, and a hatchet or axe or full sized saw is ideal. The rtak2, the way I use it, is sort of an all purpose machete. Where the machete could be an “only tool” option. No single knot has ever stopped it from its path(3 or more close together I won’t do.) it’s thinness is a benefit. The sharp point could be helpful against hungry “wolf-coyote” hybrids which have been stalking a large herd of whitetail wintering by me. It’s illegal to shoot either animal in my area ever. Even self defense would be questioned if not prosecuted. Even taking a single deer with a bow could cause me legal trouble if the animal ran even a few hundred yards.
 
You can get folding saws up to 30" blades. That is a lot of blade.
As for the wolf-coyotes, if I ever need to deal with any dangerous critters, I hope I have the means to SSS. And that first "S" isn't "stab" or "slash"!!!
 
Roguer said:
Coywolf, hybrid with the eastern gray wolf being the bridge species.
Click to expand...

They act weirdly different than either wolf or coyote. They always watch but never actually attack(yet). I can’t shoot them for legal reasons, but a well-place broadhead arrow might send the right message, and could have been fired by anyone. The largest folding saw I’d carry would be silky big boy and that’s 14”. Survival is an endless sequence of compromise huh
 
Yonose said:
I own several rtak2 knives, and have confidence in Ontario’s heat treat on 5160. I’ve recently come across someone claiming that esee or rowen conducted a bend test where they took the junglas to 90 degrees and it sprang back to true. I couldn’t find this test anywhere, but it has me wondering if well ht’d 1095 could perform such spring style action.
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This question would be better directed at experienced knife makers. The 90 degree bend test is used by the American Bladesmith Society in both its Journeyman Smith and Master Smith tests. The blade is put in a vise and bent to 90 degrees. It has "to spring back" and "remain functional". I don't think it has to return to true (zero degrees). The ABS test on youtube does not show the blade went back to true.

If the junglas sprang back to true in its test, then I think it was likely heat treated to lower Rockwell hardness. So it would fail the other ABS tests like the rope cutting and the 2X4 wood chopping and arm hair shaving. I'm very skeptical that a knife that flexible would be hard enough to cut properly. Are they saying that a factory knife outperforms an ABS smith's knife? There's no way that's possible.
 
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