Understanding kitchen knives

Matt Rochester

Matt Rochester

Joined
Nov 28, 2014
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I'm looking for information on geometry and design features of kitchen knives. Any recommendations of books or other resources?
 
I have asked this question to numerous makers. So far with almost no leads... I am looking for books or written information to help understand the reasons for and application of different geometry and features of blade shape. On field and butcher knives as well as kitchen knives. I hope your question gets some results.
 
The little that I saw of it 101 knife designs had a section on culinary knives. Showed several designs with details of the knives I saw.
 
One book that has many important aspects is by Chad Ward,
An Edge in the Kitchen This will tell you many of the uses of each design. Covers sharpening and how to use them.

I have read a few excellent excepts from a Book by, Murray Carter
only I can't remember the name of it. He is a custom maker and I suggest googling for his books.

Hope this helps you guys.
 
Chefs Knives to Go has a lot of great YouTube videos on the products that he offers.
Incredible stuff that is hard to find elsewhere on his site.
I've ordered this and that from him, but nothing in the over $100 before. I have plans to though.
 
Unless you are planning to do something exotic like a Japanese single bevel grind, or an S grind, its not that different from some of the grinds you use on regular knives. Just LOT thinner. Full height flat grind with a convex edge is not a bad place to start.
 
i like to cook, but not being a chef real deal i would be interested as well knowing the full spectrum of designs used in the kitchen and their intended usage.
I suspect many of the patterns are redundant and a lot being matter of one's preferences, still some geometries and measurements seem to be set in stone as they work well.
 
Thanks fellas. I plan on continuing to do ffg as I already do. I also take my edges to .010" or less. I really was referring to how much belly on certain style knives, lengths of those styles, edge angles, etc. I will check out Murray Carter and An Edge in the Kitchen.
 
The difference in culinary knives is almost always a matter of size and shape ... not grind. Thinness is the major reason they cut so well.

The amount of thickness behind the edge determines how much wedging the blade does. Wedging has its uses in cutting some materials, like cutting wood, but in a culinary knife, it is your enemy most of the time. The predominant grind will be Full Flat Grind with a thin pre-sharpened edge thickness. The task of the knife type will determine the basic edge thickness ( pre-sharpening). Slicers can go down to nearly a zero edge. Choppers will have about .005" edge, and some large knives for breaking down whole meats and poultry can be really thick and heavy. Utility knives will fall somewhere between these parameters depending on what material they will be cutting.

In a culinary knife, the balance between sharpness and edge retention is the key. Any knife can be made scary sharp. If it has to be re-sharpened after ten minutes of cutting, it is useless in a kitchen. This used to be met by using carbon steel almost exclusively for culinary knives. A properly heat treated 1095 knife with a thin edge can be sharpened and when it slows down to micro-edge rolling, simple steeled a few strokes on a hardened round rod and restored to razor sharp (at that time, razor blades were all 1095, too). Eventually tis rolled wire will start to wear off and the edge will need proper re-sharpening, but steeling would keep it sharp and cutting all day long. Most people do not understand using an edge steel. It is just straightening out the wire, not actually sharpening anything. It only takes a half dozen strokes. Over-steeling work hardens the edge wire and it pops off, making the blade duller.

The convex edge is popular for heavier use knives, as it gets a thin edge with more meat behind it, but the curved surface vs the standard angled surface slides through the food easier. This is usually done on a FFG as the final edge.


Then along came health laws and stainless steel knives with plastic handles. In the beginning, a chef would be laughed out of the kitchen for bringing a stainless knife. It was likely 440C, and while moderately hard and sharp, it couldn't be steeled to stay sharp, and required constant sharpening. They were considered cheap and low quality knives. Marketing by major knife brands made fancy handles and cool blade shapes, but the steel changed very little.
Modern metallurgy and better HT solved part of that, and the health departments banning carbon blades in many places took away the chefs beloved carbon blades with wooden handles.

Then the newer knife metals showed up. Particle metallurgy, nitrogen steels, vanadium and other fine carbide formers, etc. Now, a culinary knife could be very sharp and extremely hard ... as well as have excellent edge retention.

Add to these two steel classes for culinary knives - AEB-L, which is a steel type between the two types. It is basically 1070 carbon steel with 12%+ of free chromium. That makes it stainless AND sharpens like a carbon steel blade. It has been the only steel used for razor blades for a couple generations, now. Properly HTed for a culinary blade, it is an extremely good slicer steel.

The newer particle metallurgy steels (CPM and others) are now really good for culinary blades. I use CPM-S35VN for slicing and kitchen knives in .060" to .010" thickness. Professionally HTed by someone who can get the parameters I need ( Peter's). It gets hard and has superb edge retention. With proper sharpening methods, it gets as sharp as any kitchen knife will ever need to be. It was created specifically for knives.

Reliable and unbiased blade info in books and online is sort of hard to find, as every one is mostly from the writers point of view. Murray's 101 knives book is a prime example. Nothing wrong with the book, but it mainly promotes Murray's knives and how he makes them. There are culinary sites where various styles and shapes are discussed by chefs, and these are good sources of info.

Here is a good info site:
http://www.zknives.com/knives/kitchen/index.shtml

This part of the above can give you details on many steel choices for culinary knives:
http://www.zknives.com/knives/kitchen/ktknv/index.shtml

There is a lot of info on Japanese knives in that site:
http://zknives.com/knives/kitchen/misc/usetype/all/index.shtml
 
Talk to a dozen working chefs and find out what knives they reach for and why.
Read a hundred reviews on Chefknivestogo, and haunt Kitchenknifeforum.
Get your hands on some of the top selling/top rated knives and take measurements with a micrometer.
Plus everything Stacy said above.
 
Make sure that you talk to a dozen working chefs who actually car about what knives they use.;)
elementfe said:
Talk to a dozen working chefs and find out what knives they reach for and why.
Read a hundred reviews on Chefknivestogo, and haunt Kitchenknifeforum.
Get your hands on some of the top selling/top rated knives and take measurements with a micrometer.
Plus everything Stacy said above.
Click to expand...
 
jdm61 said:
Make sure that you talk to a dozen working chefs who actually car about what knives they use.;)
Click to expand...

Too true!
So many just use whatever knife is lying around, or have a favorite that is simply horrid, but it's what they're used to.
I got lucky, found a young, up and coming chef who's really making a splash around here, who is also a knife freak and very analytical about how things work in the kitchen.
 
I would think that a number of folks, particularly regular consumers with disposable income, probably got introduced to high quality kitchen knives in the same manner that they were introduced to things like Viking ranges. They were trendy and expensive. The question becomes how many of those folks have them on a magnetic rack above the Viking that doesn't really get used much either. But that is really just a hypothetical question as their money is just as good as the hardcore pro chef knife nut who carries around a roll chocked full of custom and high end Japanese goodies and that they ar a much larger potential market. :D
elementfe said:
Too true!
So many just use whatever knife is lying around, or have a favorite that is simply horrid, but it's what they're used to.
I got lucky, found a young, up and coming chef who's really making a splash around here, who is also a knife freak and very analytical about how things work in the kitchen.
Click to expand...
 
If you want to learn the history of knives in the kitchen, find an old cooking text book that talks about each knife and their uses. I have a few at home from cooking school. Very informative.
 
I work for Budweiser and we are in and out of restaurants all day. Most chefs love talking about their knives and how they use them. You'll be surprised by A 10 minute conversation. Usually they have an 8 inch that is their go to knife. Each chef is different when it comes to shape/handle/etc. but they almost all have that 8 inch they love. Then they will have a paring/utility they use a lot. Some will have a santoku. And lastly they will have a sharp well maintained carving or slicer that is 8+ inches in length. This is what I've found from my micro market research, but just getting that little bit of into helps a ton.

What I like to do is ask what their favorite knife is, I always snap pics of them. Some like wusthof, some like shun, some like cutco, and some like the junk ones with the crap plastic handle.
 
Another thing to consider is how a chef holds his knife, they barely touch the handle, they hold the blade. Look up some pics and think of how that affects your handle
 
Here are some must-have features on my knives:

  • Thin at the edge, essentially zero
  • Some form of convex geometry on the bevel, not flat
  • Handle angled up (ie. profile tapers towards tip)
  • Rounded spine and choil
  • Not too thin, needs to be rigid with weight on the blade
  • Light handle
  • Not too much belly in profile with a flat section towards the heel
 
viral said:
Another thing to consider is how a chef holds his knife, they barely touch the handle, they hold the blade. Look up some pics and think of how that affects your handle
Click to expand...

Called a pinch grip, back 3 fingers hold the handle loosely, all the control is from the thumb and pointer on the blade itself. Makes the knife much more maneuverable and easy to control once you get used to it.
 
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