Understanding kitchen knives

Thanks guys! Don, I do most of what you listed other than rounding the choil and adding some sort of convex grind. I was toying with convexing the edge on one and trying it out. My question is, do you just convex the last 1/4"-1/2" and then add a secondary bevel? Thanks for the tips.
Don Nguyen said:
Here are some must-have features on my knives:

  • Thin at the edge, essentially zero
  • Some form of convex geometry on the bevel, not flat
  • Handle angled up (ie. profile tapers towards tip)
  • Rounded spine and choil
  • Not too thin, needs to be rigid with weight on the blade
  • Light handle
  • Not too much belly in profile with a flat section towards the heel
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The impression that I get is that an 8 inch /210mm is about as long a knife as you can easily use on the "line." The same would be true in many home kitchen applications. Many of us would put Cutco in the "junk" category and Wusthof in "barely acceptable" ;) Some would say Shun can be a bit overpriced compared to other knives you can get directly from from Japan or form local purveyors if you look a little bit. But big time marketing costs money and big box retailers have to get their cut.
viral said:
I work for Budweiser and we are in and out of restaurants all day. Most chefs love talking about their knives and how they use them. You'll be surprised by A 10 minute conversation. Usually they have an 8 inch that is their go to knife. Each chef is different when it comes to shape/handle/etc. but they almost all have that 8 inch they love. Then they will have a paring/utility they use a lot. Some will have a santoku. And lastly they will have a sharp well maintained carving or slicer that is 8+ inches in length. This is what I've found from my micro market research, but just getting that little bit of into helps a ton.

What I like to do is ask what their favorite knife is, I always snap pics of them. Some like wusthof, some like shun, some like cutco, and some like the junk ones with the crap plastic handle.
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jdm61 said:
The impression that I get is that an 8 inch /210mm is about as long a knife as you can easily use on the "line." The same would be true in many home kitchen applications. Many of us would put Cutco in the "junk" category and Wusthof in "barely acceptable" ;) Some would say Shun can be a bit overpriced compared to other knives you can get directly from from Japan or form local purveyors if you look a little bit. But big time marketing costs money and big box retailers have to get their cut.
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I agree entirely. But not everyone is a Knife nut. Even the guys that use them all day. I was merely sharing what I've found in my market of chefs.
 
the fact that a number of those chefs are upgrading to any degree as opposed to just using the white handled Dexter stuff or worse is a good sign.:D
viral said:
I agree entirely. But not everyone is a Knife nut. Even the guys that use them all day. I was merely sharing what I've found in my market of chefs.
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Matt R said:
Thanks guys! Don, I do most of what you listed other than rounding the choil and adding some sort of convex grind. I was toying with convexing the edge on one and trying it out. My question is, do you just convex the last 1/4"-1/2" and then add a secondary bevel? Thanks for the tips.
Click to expand...

What I do might be totally different than what everyone else does, but it works for me. I basically do two grinds, making sure the edge is as thin as I can get it; when I sharpen the knife there should only be a thin sliver of an edge. I don't think of it as convexing the edge, because there's no material there to convex; I am taking the two bevels and blending them together on a rubber backed disc.

The height and thickness all vary depending on what kind of knife I want it to be, and I really just go by feel.

Here's an example of what I mean:

H9ntBVc.png
 
On a kitchen knife that does not have the middle hollowed out a tiny bit, i do something similar to what Don does. I do that two faceted flat grind and blend the "shinogi line" convex, but I also convex up from the edge up as high at 3/8 of an inch on bog knives and then thin it out behind the actual edge. The rubber backed disk sounds like a great idea, Don. i have used EDM stones and a rubber sanding block and that takes a LOT of time.
 
So you don't convex the edge but you do convex the primary bevel? In your previous tips you said to include some kind of convex geometry. So, either the edge or bevel is convex?
Don Nguyen said:
What I do might be totally different than what everyone else does, but it works for me. I basically do two grinds, making sure the edge is as thin as I can get it; when I sharpen the knife there should only be a thin sliver of an edge. I don't think of it as convexing the edge, because there's no material there to convex; I am taking the two bevels and blending them together on a rubber backed disc.

The height and thickness all vary depending on what kind of knife I want it to be, and I really just go by feel.

Here's an example of what I mean:

H9ntBVc.png
Click to expand...
 
jdm61 said:
On a kitchen knife that does not have the middle hollowed out a tiny bit, i do something similar to what Don does. I do that two faceted flat grind and blend the "shinogi line" convex, but I also convex up from the edge up as high at 3/8 of an inch on bog knives and then thin it out behind the actual edge. The rubber backed disk sounds like a great idea, Don. i have used EDM stones and a rubber sanding block and that takes a LOT of time.
Click to expand...

That DOES sound like a lot of time, sheesh!

One not is that my 'shinogi' is usually around the lower 1/3 of the blade. On lasers it would be 1/2.
 
Matt R said:
So you don't convex the edge but you do convex the primary bevel? In your previous tips you said to include some kind of convex geometry. So, either the edge or bevel is convex?
Click to expand...

Right, the primary bevel is convex. Hope that makes sense.
 
Don Nguyen said:
Right, the primary bevel is convex. Hope that makes sense.
Click to expand...

It makes sense now that I looked up what a shinogi line is! Thanks for the help. I made a knife for a friend of my sister, who is a chef, and within 30 seconds he said I needed to round the spine and polish the edge. Now I use a 220 belt and a fine scotch brite to round them. I will do the same on the choil. I don't have a rotary platen yet but I may try to convex on my slack belt. Do you do both sides so its ambidextrous or just one and designate it left or right?
 
if you convex with the slack belt, try to do it lightly and close to the wheel so the portion of the belt that you are using is not too slack.
Matt R said:
It makes sense now that I looked up what a shinogi line is! Thanks for the help. I made a knife for a friend of my sister, who is a chef, and within 30 seconds he said I needed to round the spine and polish the edge. Now I use a 220 belt and a fine scotch brite to round them. I will do the same on the choil. I don't have a rotary platen yet but I may try to convex on my slack belt. Do you do both sides so its ambidextrous or just one and designate it left or right?
Click to expand...
 
I have a 6" section of slack belt I was going to use. I was also going to use the gator belts because they are more stiff.
jdm61 said:
if you convex with the slack belt, try to do it lightly and close to the wheel so the portion of the belt that you are using is not too slack.
Click to expand...
 
Great thread idea! Thanks to everyone for the detailed input. Being pretty new at the kitchen knife thing myself, I only have a couple very general things to add...

"Thin is in and light is right" is about as close to a "rule" as I have about any style of knife. Balance/comfort is second only to cutting performance. Chef's knives, slicers, even cleavers, should not feel like a baseball bat in your hand!
But there is such a thing as too thin and too light, especially in a general-purpose 8" chef/gyuto/santoku. I think, and every pro cook and chef I've asked agrees, you want some stiffness to it. That doesn't mean it has to be 3/16" thick at the spine... I find most agree that 1/8" stock is probably the absolute maximum, and then it better be distally-tapered and fully-ground if you really want it to cut and balance well.

In defense of cheap knives: There are some very well-designed ones out there, and you can learn from them.
One of the faves in my kitchen is a Victorinox 8" chef with ugly molded handles that I paid about $30 for - shipped. I bought it specifically because it received uniformly high reviews from a number of TV/online/magazine sources that cater to both home cooks and people "on the line" all week - on a budget.
It doesn't hold an edge worth a hoot, compared to the sort of knives we're used to... but it does cut very well when it's sharp, and it's both comfortable and well-balanced. If a knife I make doesn't out-perform that one noticeably, right off the bat... it's back to the drawing board. So to me, that was $30 well-spent.
On the other hand, I also own an inexpensive 10" Chicago Cutlery chef, 70's vintage, that holds an edge much better, but frankly it's way too big, long and heavy for what I think of as household, everyday use.

Most of all... if you want to make kitchen knives, learn the basic cuts a trained chef would use and practice them at least a little. There are plenty of videos on youtube by chefs (both famous and not-so-famous) showing how to properly dice an onion, slice a tomato, carve a turkey, finely chop herbs, etc.
 
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James is right!
Most of the times people will reach for a light cheap knife and abuse it for almost every duty, and if we can get it sharp it actually works... but as for screwdrivers and wrenches, when we get used to use the right tool for the job, and start to care about it, a new world opens :)
 
I also have a cheap older wood handled Victorinox lying around. Ugly as a Yugo, but it will get sharp. It just won't stay sharp for long. That is a hardness issue like with a lot of Euro knives, bit does not seem to chip out like other ones. I have wondered at times what genius German metallurgist managed to invent the medium carbon stainless used in the lower priced Henckels knives that will both chip AND roll/flatten at the edge when some yuppie housefrau uses one on the "cutting board' that she had made from leftover granite or Corian countertop material? :D
 
I have no comment on the metallurgy of Henckels or Wusthof stuff. Because I can't figure it out, either. It's like someone tried very hard to develop and HT an alloy that is stain-resistant and easy to drop-forge and machine, but then is absolutely everything you do NOT want in a kitchen knife... :confused:

Oh wait... actually, we just figured it out... stain-resistant and easy to forge/machine. Ka-ching! :rolleyes:

jdm61 said:
...leftover granite or Corian countertop material? :D
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The number one thing that voids all my warranties, express or implied, is using my knives on granite/marble/stone/Corian/glass cutting boards. :grumpy:

The use of such monstrosities is so very dumb, I can hardly express my frustration with them. :mad:
 
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viral said:
I work for Budweiser and we are in and out of restaurants all day. Most chefs love talking about their knives and how they use them. You'll be surprised by A 10 minute conversation. Usually they have an 8 inch that is their go to knife. Each chef is different when it comes to shape/handle/etc. but they almost all have that 8 inch they love. Then they will have a paring/utility they use a lot. Some will have a santoku. And lastly they will have a sharp well maintained carving or slicer that is 8+ inches in length. This is what I've found from my micro market research, but just getting that little bit of into helps a ton.

What I like to do is ask what their favorite knife is, I always snap pics of them. Some like wusthof, some like shun, some like cutco, and some like the junk ones with the crap plastic handle.
Click to expand...

it can be very personal for each chef or home cook. Some like 8" others 10".
Some like the edge fairly flat out to make lots of board contact with a minimum of rock. Others like to rock starting at the tip to the heel and then back again.

Also the quality of the knives used in a commercial can be lower because anything that costs more than about $50.00 in a knife can grow feet and disappear. :eek: I know many restaurant owners that are trained papered chefs that only use the cheap stuff at work because any nice knife can/will disappear.

The good news is we rehabilitate people from jail to work in Restaurants and that;s the bad news too! ;)

Many chefs I know still have nice customs, some mine, some others but they only use them at home or when they have a cooking demo etc in what some call, the front of the house/Restaurant or they are doing a Video, film shoot.
 
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