Undeserved infraction

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May 18, 2005
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General Knife Discussion SANRENMU Folding Knife

Not the terminology we need in the General Knife Discussion. Just going to encourage more of the same from others. Keep it clean, keep it polite, don't encourage anger, divisiveness, and friction.
 
So mentioning the fact they are thieves is discouraged? Enough ethically challenged people fawn over their wares. Someone has to say the facts in case some people are merely unaware.
 
1. The infraction was for the word I deleted: scumbag.

2. Saying they were thieves wasn't too cool, either, and bordered on trolling, in a thread devoted to knives they manufacture that do not copy anyone else's.

3. You are not and were not in Whine & Cheese, where your cross-eyed assault on reality might fit better.
 
So mentioning the fact they are thieves is discouraged? Enough ethically challenged people fawn over their wares. Someone has to say the facts in case some people are merely unaware.

No offense Rat but your comments in that thread were inappropriate. Number one, Sanrenmu works very closely with a ton of companies in the industry, much more involved here than most anyone realizes actually doing a lot for USA companies. You have to look at the facts. If the company is the blatant thief you present then why on earth would companies keep working with them contracting with them to not only make knives but other parts as well? No, the fact is you don't know enough about the situation to even comment and you jumped to conclusions based on nothing more than hearsay really. If one of the owners of companies contracting with SRM wants to chime in and complain about them stealing I'd be very intent on listening but the fact is you don't see that at all. In fact what we see is just the opposite, IE, even more knives made for them by SRM than ever before. I can think of at least five USA companies right off the top of my head that I know SRM works closely with and at least three of those are companies that have used them for more than one model they sell so again, it makes zero sense to see these companies working together if one is stealing from the other. Anyway, we need to stop assuming so much when these topics come up about hot issues. We really don't know enough to make a statement such as yours and thats my point.

STR
 
Copying isn't stealing. Having an idea doesn't make it yours. Having it copied doesn't lessen its value. Forbidding copying infringes on actual property rights, not just pretend ones. Illegal copyright infringing is wrong because it's illegal (malum prohibitum). Don't do it. Otherwise, everyone should copy; it's how we learn.
 
Copying isn't stealing. Having an idea doesn't make it yours. Having it copied doesn't lessen its value. Forbidding copying infringes on actual property rights, not just pretend ones. Illegal copyright infringing is wrong because it's illegal (malum prohibitum). Don't do it. Otherwise, everyone should copy; it's how we learn.
The line between copying and stealing is a fine one, indeed. I think for too many companies R&D stands for Rob and Duplicate. I don't know anything about the products in question
but to say copying isn't stealing paints with a brush that is too broad for me.
 
Laws do not always reflect what is right and what is wrong as far as I am concerned.

As far as the minor infraction, it was the right thing to do. In General it was a trolling post that would be more appropriate in GB&U. It got a response that was also trolling that also was an infraction.
 
No offense Rat but your comments in that thread were inappropriate. Number one, Sanrenmu works very closely with a ton of companies in the industry, much more involved here than most anyone realizes actually doing a lot for USA companies. You have to look at the facts. If the company is the blatant thief you present then why on earth would companies keep working with them contracting with them to not only make knives but other parts as well? No, the fact is you don't know enough about the situation to even comment and you jumped to conclusions based on nothing more than hearsay really. If one of the owners of companies contracting with SRM wants to chime in and complain about them stealing I'd be very intent on listening but the fact is you don't see that at all. In fact what we see is just the opposite, IE, even more knives made for them by SRM than ever before. I can think of at least five USA companies right off the top of my head that I know SRM works closely with and at least three of those are companies that have used them for more than one model they sell so again, it makes zero sense to see these companies working together if one is stealing from the other. Anyway, we need to stop assuming so much when these topics come up about hot issues. We really don't know enough to make a statement such as yours and thats my point.

STR

Cheap Labor.

And they are definitely design thieves. Look at all the people running around promoting their Sebenza clone.

Esav- Another thing, you deleted a mild, non-vulgar word you somehow found offensive. Meanwhile others who post actual vulgarity and four letter words get a strike thru at most. What makes you decide to single out me or my post for censorship?
 
Well, SCOTUS has used the same brush, so I don't think I'm walking a fine line here.

You don't know what you are talking about. US laws have no bearing on Red China, where they do not honor copyrights. Just because they can get away with something does not make it right.
 
My opinion of Bladeforums and especially of esav has decreased.
Ty, Rat, for sharing this injustice.
 
"You don't know what you are talking about. US laws have no bearing on Red China, where they do not honor copyrights. Just because they can get away with something does not make it right."

Wow, what a compelling ad-hominem! But hey, it's Friday, right? Anyway, US laws actually do have bearing on whatever foreign company is selling a US-copyright-infringing product back to the US. That wasn't the point I was making, though. Copyright infringement isn't stealing because it isn't a zero-sum game. You don't lose the value of a work when someone copies it from you. You get a good knife and they get a good knife that they made with their own tools and their own materials. Also, it isn't exactly very "Red" for someone in China to act as though he ought to be able to do and make whatever the heck he wants with his own forge or with his own factory without having you or the US telling him what he can and can't do.

Now as to whether mass production of any utilitarian tools really honestly qualifies as copyright infringement is a whole other question. In most cases, it probably doesn't. A knife is a really difficult thing to copyright. The reason is that the simpler and the more readily intuitive the nature of the design (the shape of a blade?) the more likely it wasn't copied in the first place. (Heaven forbid someone in "Red China" had the same idea independently!!) On the other hand, the more complex and mechanical the design is (a folding or locking mechanism), the more likely it's covered by patent and not copyright.

In either case, if they regularly do business with many of the same companies you feel they are infringing upon, then it's not unlikely that a number of agreements are in place, written, verbal, or implied. In this case you have a LOT to prove up before you can go calling someone a thief.

Now this might be off point in a knife forum, but since you raised the issue, copyright and patents are based on civil agreements about what is economically expedient and have little to do with inherent moral right to intellectual property. This is seen when looking at their historical development and their legal grounding. The purpose of the earliest copyright law, the Statute of Anne, was to serve as a protection for the publishing guilds for the political benefit of the crown, and it offered zero protection to the content creators. The purpose of the US copyright system is stated in the US Constitution: to promote the progress of Science and the Useful Arts. From a legal perspective it is a national agreement that although you ought to be able to copy whatever you want, we as a people want to offer incentives for invention by granting a limited-term monopoly to artists and inventors. Thomas Jefferson strongly resisted both copyrights and patents as morally and economically harmful. It's interesting to me that our society has turned a full 180 on the subject in so little time. Monopolies were once seen as villainous and tyrannical, and we now view them as our god-given right. Well that's enough of that for a knife forum anyway.

As to whether I know what I am talking about, it's hard to say. You might be right.
 
Esav is a lot easier going than I am, and if he thought you deserved it, I back him up. You'll notice that he left the gist of the message untouched, you should pay heed to that.

The fact of the matter is that I'm generally not offended by harsh language, and to be quite honest, a 1 point infraction that expires in 10 days is nothing to get worked up over. You've got 18,000 posts, you need to start thinking about the effect you have in this community. People will see you and how you behave, and base their own behavior on it. Do you want to set an example where things go straight to flaming, or do you want to express yourself in a different manner while getting the same point across?
 
"You don't know what you are talking about. US laws have no bearing on Red China, where they do not honor copyrights. Just because they can get away with something does not make it right."

Wow, what a compelling ad-hominem! But hey, it's Friday, right? Anyway, US laws actually do have bearing on whatever foreign company is selling a US-copyright-infringing product back to the US. That wasn't the point I was making, though. Copyright infringement isn't stealing because it isn't a zero-sum game. You don't lose the value of a work when someone copies it from you. You get a good knife and they get a good knife that they made with their own tools and their own materials. Also, it isn't exactly very "Red" for someone in China to act as though he ought to be able to do and make whatever the heck he wants with his own forge or with his own factory without having you or the US telling him what he can and can't do.

Now as to whether mass production of any utilitarian tools really honestly qualifies as copyright infringement is a whole other question. In most cases, it probably doesn't. A knife is a really difficult thing to copyright. The reason is that the simpler and the more readily intuitive the nature of the design (the shape of a blade?) the more likely it wasn't copied in the first place. (Heaven forbid someone in "Red China" had the same idea independently!!) On the other hand, the more complex and mechanical the design is (a folding or locking mechanism), the more likely it's covered by patent and not copyright.

In either case, if they regularly do business with many of the same companies you feel they are infringing upon, then it's not unlikely that a number of agreements are in place, written, verbal, or implied. In this case you have a LOT to prove up before you can go calling someone a thief.

Now this might be off point in a knife forum, but since you raised the issue, copyright and patents are based on civil agreements about what is economically expedient and have little to do with inherent moral right to intellectual property. This is seen when looking at their historical development and their legal grounding. The purpose of the earliest copyright law, the Statute of Anne, was to serve as a protection for the publishing guilds for the political benefit of the crown, and it offered zero protection to the content creators. The purpose of the US copyright system is stated in the US Constitution: to promote the progress of Science and the Useful Arts. From a legal perspective it is a national agreement that although you ought to be able to copy whatever you want, we as a people want to offer incentives for invention by granting a limited-term monopoly to artists and inventors. Thomas Jefferson strongly resisted both copyrights and patents as morally and economically harmful. It's interesting to me that our society has turned a full 180 on the subject in so little time. Monopolies were once seen as villainous and tyrannical, and we now view them as our god-given right. Well that's enough of that for a knife forum anyway.

As to whether I know what I am talking about, it's hard to say. You might be right.

That is a lot of smoke to blow just to justify your penchant for supporting unethical companies. And yes, you don't know what you are talking about.
 
Esav is a lot easier going than I am, and if he thought you deserved it, I back him up. You'll notice that he left the gist of the message untouched, you should pay heed to that.

The fact of the matter is that I'm generally not offended by harsh language, and to be quite honest, a 1 point infraction that expires in 10 days is nothing to get worked up over. You've got 18,000 posts, you need to start thinking about the effect you have in this community. People will see you and how you behave, and base their own behavior on it. Do you want to set an example where things go straight to flaming, or do you want to express yourself in a different manner while getting the same point across?

I would hardly say I am worked up. Just as calling a thief a scumbag is hardly harsh language. (or flaming)
The fact that he left the rest of the post would lead a casual observer to assume I posted some sort of vulgar slur worthy of deletion.

The amount of people flagrantly supporting knockoff artists these days is disturbing.

Undoubtedly shecky or some other known scruple-free member reported my post long after I posted it.
 
It's been that way for years. You don't have to like it, I certainly don't, but there's times and places to pick your battles.
 
"That is a lot of smoke to blow just to justify your penchant for supporting unethical companies. And yes, you don't know what you are talking about."

I'm sorry. I thought actually giving reasoned support for my arguments was just part of following the rules at BF. Apparently it's just blowing smoke. I guess I'm supposed to just hurl insults and say I'm right just because I say so. Hey, if I don't know what I'm talking about, please tell me what I need to know. I'm all ears. Or is it just gonna be the insult?

For me it IS an ethical stance. It's one thing for completely artistic endeavors to be protected. It's one thing for completely original inventions to have a patent. It's a whole other thing to enforce some ridiculous version of either on the production of one of the most fundamentally basic and universally necessary tools known to man. Actually attempting to claim a copyright or patent on a knife? Why not walls and floors and pottery? Why not the wheel? Give me ONE GOOD REASON why someone in China or any other country shouldn't make whatever kinds of knives they want to? THEY'RE KNIVES FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!!! People NEED them. Should they really have to get some rich redneck's permission to make them?
 
"That is a lot of smoke to blow just to justify your penchant for supporting unethical companies. And yes, you don't know what you are talking about."

I'm sorry. I thought actually giving reasoned support for my arguments was just part of following the rules at BF. Apparently it's just blowing smoke. I guess I'm supposed to just hurl insults and say I'm right just because I say so. Hey, if I don't know what I'm talking about, please tell me what I need to know. I'm all ears. Or is it just gonna be the insult?

For me it IS an ethical stance. It's one thing for completely artistic endeavors to be protected. It's one thing for completely original inventions to have a patent. It's a whole other thing to enforce some ridiculous version of either on the production of one of the most fundamentally basic and universally necessary tools known to man. Actually attempting to claim a copyright or patent on a knife? Why not walls and floors and pottery? Why not the wheel? Give me ONE GOOD REASON why someone in China or any other country shouldn't make whatever kinds of knives they want to? THEY'RE KNIVES FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!!! People NEED them. Should they really have to get some rich redneck's permission to make them?

So... the "ethical" choice for you is, it's ok to steal as long as it's on something like a knife? There are various unique design elements that these companies (Sanrenmu, in particular) like to copy. If they have permission to do so or not, I do not know. In a lot of cases, maybe. In some, I doubt it. Stealing the Sebenza design from Chris Reeve is not an ethical thing to do. I know for a fact that they do not have permission from Chris Reeve to use it, because he's stated on his own forum that he doesn't endorse any Chinese copies, and he likes people to report them when they see them. And, that's what the SRM 710 is.
 
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