Undeserved infraction

jeverettk said:
For me it IS an ethical stance.
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Apparently not, because you don't seem to have any, at least when it comes to knives.
It's one thing for completely artistic endeavors to be protected.
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Like how the 710 looks like a Sebenza, or other knives look like Benchmade/HKs, and/or use Spyderco's trademark round hole?
It's one thing for completely original inventions to have a patent.
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Like Benchmade's AXIS lock?
It's a whole other thing to enforce some ridiculous version of either on the production of one of the most fundamentally basic and universally necessary tools known to man. Actually attempting to claim a copyright or patent on a knife? Why not walls and floors and pottery? Why not the wheel?
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Why not a car's fuel management system? Why not a microprocessor? Why not a $1500 Gucci handbag? Why not the the underlying rhythm of "Under Pressure" by Queen? Your examples are fallacious. And quite frankly, asinine. The aesthetic design of a knife belongs to the creator as a copyright, and mechanical design of its functionality can be granted a patent.
Give me ONE GOOD REASON why someone in China or any other country shouldn't make whatever kinds of knives they want to?
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International copyright laws. International patent laws. Common effing decency.
THEY'RE KNIVES FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!!! People NEED them. Should they really have to get some rich redneck's permission to make them?
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I don't know what excremental orifice you pulled the "rich redneck" comment from, so I'll just ignore that. But yes, if you want your knife to look like somebody else's knife (or any other product or intellectual property), you should get permission and respect their decision if they don't give it to you. SRM (and Taylor, and Maxam, and MTech, etc) don't even ask, they just take. Companies like that are flexible containers of surface algae.
 
"Apparently not, because you don't seem to have any, at least when it comes to knives."
Don't be so quick to judge.

"Like how the 710 looks like a Sebenza, or other knives look like Benchmade/HKs, and/or use Spyderco's trademark round hole?" Yeah I don't think copyright comes into play here in the slightest. There's loads of case law that covers what is and isn't trademarked - a hole being round? Not.

"Like Benchmade's AXIS lock?" Well now there is an actual patented (and I'd say perfectly patentable) innovation that actually bears enforcement. Even so, infringing on it is NOT stealing. It's patent infringement. It's a civil matter, and the resolution for it should only involve a proper calculation of royalties and in no way would you send anyone to prison over it, and you would NEVER be justified calling someone a thief over it.

"Why not a car's fuel management system? Why not a microprocessor?"

I'm in agreement on those at least inasmuch as a patent promotes the progress. Those aren't really in the same category as pottery, walls, floors, and knives though. The one group has been around for centuries. The other hasn't.

As for the Gucci handbag, there currently is no copyright protection for fashion, and there really shouldn't be. It would destroy the industry. The only legal problem with Gucci knockoffs is in counterfeiting: people selling handbags that aren't Gucci's and claiming that they are. That both harms the consumer who has a right to know whose product they're getting and harms the brand image of Gucci when faulty products are sold under their name. I'm not against trademarks they protect consumers and industry both.

"International copyright laws. International patent laws. Common effing decency."

International copyright laws really only exist in the form of treaties. When we pick up the habit of "accidentally" bombing another country's embassy, intentionally blocking their entrance into major global economic groups, and the like, we don't really have much ground to stand on expecting them to honor our laws. I believe common effing decency favors leaving people alone to produce whatever they want. I think your system of ethics is in the wrong on this part. I've given reasons why. You haven't given anything to counter.

Yes, I did pull 'rich redneck" out of my butt. Well kinda. If someone can afford to make their own knives, they are rich by the standards of some 85% of the world. Easily rich by Chinese standards. As for "redneck" I was matching tit for tat against "Red China."

I doubt you could make a truly useful knife today that doesn't resemble someone else's. It'd be an interesting challenge, though. You should give it a try and post the results.
 
jeverettk said:
Yeah I don't think copyright comes into play here in the slightest. There's loads of case law that covers what is and isn't trademarked - a hole being round? Not.
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Spyderco's round hole opening is trademarked. Whether you agree with it or not is irrelevant and doesn't change this fact.

"Like Benchmade's AXIS lock?" Well now there is an actual patented (and I'd say perfectly patentable) innovation that actually bears enforcement. Even so, infringing on it is NOT stealing. It's patent infringement. It's a civil matter, and the resolution for it should only involve a proper calculation of royalties and in no way would you send anyone to prison over it, and you would NEVER be justified calling someone a thief over it.
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Absolutely ridiculous. Theft is taking something that isn't yours without permission. SRM took the AXIS lock and used it without permission. That's theft. A retroactive payment of royalties (which'll never happen) won't justify the theft. No more than if I stole $50 from your wallet, got caught, and was ordered to pay you back. Sure you got your money back, but that doesn't make my theft "OK".

As for the Gucci handbag, there currently is no copyright protection for fashion, and there really shouldn't be. It would destroy the industry. The only legal problem with Gucci knockoffs is in counterfeiting: people selling handbags that aren't Gucci's and claiming that they are. That both harms the consumer who has a right to know whose product they're getting and harms the brand image of Gucci when faulty products are sold under their name. I'm not against trademarks they protect consumers and industry both.
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SRM sells counterfeits. Copied designs, copied mechanisms, and copied trademarks. Just because they might not have the actual companies' logos on them doesn't make this "OK".

International copyright laws really only exist in the form of treaties. When we pick up the habit of "accidentally" bombing another country's embassy, intentionally blocking their entrance into major global economic groups, and the like, we don't really have much ground to stand on expecting them to honor our laws.
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What the hell does this have to do with anything? [quote[I believe common effing decency favors leaving people alone to produce whatever they want. I think your system of ethics is in the wrong on this part. [/quote]Yes, you've made it very clear by now that you have no scruples when it comes to ripping off the hard work of honest, industrious people (and not just Americans). [/quote]I've given reasons why. You haven't given anything to counter.[/quote]I believe I have.

Yes, I did pull 'rich redneck" out of my butt. Well kinda. If someone can afford to make their own knives, they are rich by the standards of some 85% of the world. Easily rich by Chinese standards. As for "redneck" I was matching tit for tat against "Red China."
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Still doesn't make any sense.

I doubt you could make a truly useful knife today that doesn't resemble someone else's. It'd be an interesting challenge, though. You should give it a try and post the results.
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I plan to some day. Benchmade, Kershaw, SOG, Chris Reeve, Microtech, MOD, Boker, CRKT, Buck, Moki, Mcusta, etc seem not to have any problem making unique looking knives all the time without directly copying others'. Heck, even Mantis, absurd though their knives are, can be lauded for designing unique looking knives. There's no reason anybody can't come up with a unique looking knife, unless they're deliberately copying an existing design with intent to sell at a less expensive price than the original (aka: a knock-off), which these companies like SRM do.
 
Only the original post/topic belongs here.
 
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"Spyderco's round hole opening is trademarked. Whether you agree with it or not is irrelevant and doesn't change this fact."
I should have been more clear. What I mean is that if that trademark were ever tested in court, it would fail miserably.

"Absolutely ridiculous. Theft is taking something that isn't yours without permission."
I agree. But that's the entire point. You don't take something when you copy. You copy. If I were to buy a knife you made, what makes it still yours? If I copy it, what does it have to do with you? Maybe I make some changes, maybe they're really small ones, maybe it's practically identical. It's my knife now. As for the design, you gave that away when you sold the knife. I can't steal what I've already bought, but it could be some kind of infringement of an artificially granted monopoly. Read that right. There is no natural law that governs who can or can't copy ideas and what ideas they can or can't copy. Natural law says my steel, my forge, my file, my right to do whatever. It's only an artificial interference that gives someone a monopoly over their idea.

As for infringing on artificially granted monopolies, I'm for obeying the law. I said that at the outset. As for stealing ideas, I'm firmly of the belief that there's nothing new under the sun. All of your ideas are just as much borrowed as mine are. I'm just more willing to admit it.

As for counterfeits, the very definition of counterfeiting is trying to pass off a copy as the original. So, whether not using the companies name or logo makes it right, it absolutely makes it NOT counterfeiting.

As for scruples, you seem to be very quick to drop a load on someone's name before you know anything about them or the situation involved. I've just pointed out the flaws in your thinking. I'm for obeying the law, as I've already said. So take your comments about my scruples and shove 'em.

Mods are free to do as they like with the thread. I thought it was already moved. If I've misunderstood, then I apologize.
 
None of you are discussing the original infraction, which Rat is incapable of understanding.
 
If you guys dont already know but the companys your saying Serenmu are ripping off are the ones that have contracted Serenmu to make some of their knives.
Such as Spyderco, CRKT, Benchmade. Theres a lot of behind the scenes dealings that none of us know are going on so it isnt anyones place to say whats right and whats
wrong. Now would I ever buy a Serenmu knife made in China.....hell no. Not that their not good knives for the value but I choose to support USA based knife companys because
theres only so many companys still producing goods in the US. However I would respect Sernmu as a knife more if they did have a creative R&D department creating new
designs to further push the boundries and come up with new innovations. But we got to remember its a different culture and different economic climate in China.
 
snowreaper1 said:
If you guys dont already know but the companys your saying Serenmu are ripping off are the ones that have contracted Serenmu to make some of their knives.
Such as Spyderco, CRKT, Benchmade. Theres a lot of behind the scenes dealings that none of us know are going on so it isnt anyones place to say whats right and whats
wrong. Now would I ever buy a Serenmu knife made in China.....hell no. Not that their not good knives for the value but I choose to support USA based knife companys because
theres only so many companys still producing goods in the US. However I would respect Sernmu as a knife more if they did have a creative R&D department creating new
designs to further push the boundries and come up with new innovations. But we got to remember its a different culture and different economic climate in China.
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I don't think there's anyway to prove that Benchmade contracts SRM to make knives for them. I've never seen a statement from Benchmade saying that, anyways. And, even if it were true, I doubt Benchmade gave them free reign to copy and reproduce their designs at will, and then sell them for rock-bottom prices. You say that "none of us" knows about these behind-the-scenes dealings, but then you go on to say who's making what for who. And, as for the "different culture" in China, that's fine. I don't have to support it with my money, and neither do you.
 
Esav Benyamin said:
None of you are discussing the original infraction, which Rat is incapable of understanding.
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so mods are allowed to issue personal attacks?

I may renew my gold simply to be able to sell, but this discussion, and particularly the responses from moderators, has been .... interesting.
 
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tobotech said:
so mods are allowed to issue personal attacks?

I may renew my gold simply to be able to sell, but this discussion, and particularly the responses from moderators, has been .... interesting.
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What makes you think that moderators are somehow incapable of human emotion? Do they insult people? Yup. They're people.
 
it is usually a person's adept ability to deal with said emotion that lends them to the position and arguably a trait required to be an effective moderator
 
tobotech said:
it is usually a person's adept ability to deal with said emotion that lends them to the position and arguably a trait required to be an effective moderator
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Right. And, I think our mods (super mods, anyways) do a really good job of that. But, they are still people, and they still have their moments.
 
EMT_Lee said:
What makes you think that moderators are somehow incapable of human emotion? Do they insult people? Yup. They're people.
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E.S.A.V. is actually just a moderating program being run on the server. Spark thought it'd be funny to have it randomly infract people and then make snarky comments in response.
 
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