Unfair to show goers.

Mike,

Having been on the other side of the table for well into my second decade I will tell you this. You are fighting a losing battle.

At Gun Shows the majority of people that are there are those looking to work you down on price. Many have been there all three days, watching and waiting. Till they can say "you don't want to take that home with you do you?".

A very famous maker told me that he was at a NKCA Show. A customer came to his table and asked him how much a particular knife was. The maker stated 375. The customer left. The maker then watched this customer for next three days come close to his table, eye balling to see if the knife was there.

Well this knife maker stayed until the show closed. Five minutes before the show closed he was rewared as the customer could no longer wait. He asked the maker if he could come down on the price, after all he had the knife all weekend. The maker explained he does not discount and will take the knife home. With that the customer said OK, 375 it is. He reached into his pocket and handed the maker a $5.00 bill. Standing there waiting for his change and the knife.

The knife of course was $375.00.

I was at a gun and knife show here in town. First one I did in 7 years. I took my 8 and 11 year old at the time, with me to the show. They sold about $50 worth of Pokemon cards. I had an individual pick up a Butch Vallotton D/A Folder. He asked the price (forgeting the lesson from above, I said 7 **the price was on the back side of the knife**) He said "I'll take it." Yep you guessed it he handed me a $10 bill. I then explained it was $700, he flew off the handle and started telling anyone who say that he was an idiot that no knife could cost that much, etc. As he moved away from the table.

After he left, my 8 year old looked at me and said "Dad how could he possiby think that knife was only $7. The titanium on the knife is more than that." Note, Years from now when you see this cute girl behind my table, do not make the assumption you know more about custom knives than she does. She sold two custom knives at that gun show.

With the exception of extremly large shows (400+ tables) there is no reason for a 3 day show. As has been stated here, at custom shows, Friday is the day for the big hitters. Sales drop by 50% each day for the next two days.

Alot of people leave early on Sunday now due to the reduced flying schedule as well as the extra time needed to get on the plane. Personally, I would like to see shows on Friday and Saturday only. Fly out early on Sunday, home in time to enjoy Sunday dinner with the family.

Having three days only increases expenses that are not justified by one or two sales you will have on that third day.

As for long trips, yes that is a reality. I left the NY Custom Knife show at 1:30 PM. I arrived at my house in Evans GA 10:15PM that night. Note, I Flew! If I would have stayed to the end of the show, I would have gotten home around 3AM.

Also, three days is a long time at a show. Take the NY Show for instance. I get in to set up at 10am, show opens to Guild Memebers at noon and general public at 1PM. The show is then open to 8PM. That is 10 hours at the show. Next day, you get there at 9am and the show is open to 6PM, that is another 9 hour day. That is 16 hours infront of customers. Note, most of us have "real" jobs that we have worked all week, then put in a 26 hour weekend, then Monday morning show up for work.

Fortunately, Im one of those people who doesn't have a real job. So I will get to work 12-14 hours on Monday upon my return. As I will get 100 phone calls and 300 emails, have to take pictures, update the web site, ship out the knives I have sold upon my return, etc. Don't get me wrong, I love it! However, if I had stayed all day on Sunday and got in at 3am Monday morning, I probably wouldn't love it as much.

I understand the frustration of going to a show only to see it half full. I hope this post gives you a little insight to being on the other side of the table.

Next time you see a guy hauling off his wares after putting in a 26 hour weekend (not including the time to get there and back). It's not that he doesn't want to sell you a knife. It may really be that he has to spend 8 hours at airports to fly 2 hours and that he does have to get up at 6am the next morining to get to his job, what ever that may be.
 
I don't get that: most of us do work, and I don't understand why a show has to start on a Friday. Wouldn't Saturday be more convenient?

JD
 
Thank you, Joss. I was wondering the same thing as I read this thread. I don't know who in the heck has the time to go on a Friday afternoon, let alone a Friday morning, to a show.
 
I agree that for most people having shows on the weekend would be best. Most people that have jobs work on Friday and I would think that that includes the makers that also have another job. If the makers stayed until the end of the show on Sunday they could have Monday as their travel day and it would really be no different than missing work on Friday. Maybe there is a reason to have the first day be Friday. If so I would love to know what that reason is.

By the way, this makes no difference to me since I work Saturdays, but for most people I would think that Saturday and Sunday would be better than Friday and Saturday.
 
This is an interesting thread.

The problem stems, mainly, from the 80:20 rule. It is an axiom that applies to all forms of sales in every competitive market. The axiom demonstrates that 20% of the sellers do 80% of the business in a market. This is especially evident in the luxury item class, which custom knives happen to be in, and so are most guns and knives of any sort.

In the gun show market it is the same 20% who do 80% of the sales at every show in which they participate. Naturally, no one carries inexhaustible inventories, so those 20% often sell out quickly, at least their more desirable items. After the most desirable items, at desirable prices, are sold, all that can remain is the less desirable offerings which are unfortunately spread out over 80% of the room. While those first 20% were selling 80% of the knives/guns, the other 80% of the vendors were fighting for the other 20% of the possible sales! What you end up with, after the best stuff is sold, is a room full of uncompelling merchandise.

The 80-percenters become exhausted and bored in the latter days of the show, and having not sold many knives find compelling reasons not to stay to the end of the show. This is why you'll see people packing up alot of merchandise early when it seems they should be selling it. Sometimes the 20-percenters also leave early because they have nothing left to sell.

Interestingly, the obverse of the 80:20 rule also applies to these shows; that is, that 20% of the customers do 80% of the buying!. those 20% have learned the benefits of getting there early and are prepared to buy when they see what they want. Eighty percent of the customers show up later somewhat less motivated.

It has been my experience that a great many show promoters (and emphasize that NOT ALL are)are quite unprofessional in their operations. Cronyism among promoters and their long-time 20-percenters is rampant. The promoters far too willingly tolerate the leaving early of their best sellers even though most vendor/exhibitoor contracts strictly forbid it. They do this to keep the goodwill of their best selling exhibitors, thinking this will keep them paying their exhibition fees.

These special rules, at some gun/knife shows do a sonsiderable disservice to the customer and only serve to further diminish the aleady suspect reputations of these unprofessional shows.

The 80:20 rule will always apply, but the consistent late in the weekend quality problem will exist until the promoters start consistently enforcing their own contracts.
 
WOW thanks for all the insight. This thread sure brought out the cream of the Forumites.

How about a reduced admission price on Sundays. Or at least after noon on Sun. Or maybee FREE after noon on Sun. Might help Sun. attendance.

Just a thought-- how about a knife auction or give away Sun PM instead of first or second day of show?

Perhaps bringing more stock (if possible) might help.

How about a Table rebate at the end of the show.

Just to toss some ideas out there.

Thanks again for the insightfull responses.

Regards

Mike
 
As we can read in this post there are a great number of variables interacting upon the perception of a knife show. I look at it this way, when I agree to display knives at a show, I have a serious obligation to do my part. Once I agree to do a show, all future issues concerning my convience matter not. I agreed to a contract, it is up to me to fulfill that commitment. If the contract states "No vender will leave the show before it is over", and I agree to that commitment it is my duty to be there when the final curtain falls. Compare a knife show to a theater production, just becaus of light attendence, all the actors stick to the final scene. If I cannot fulfill my obligation, I should not agree to the terms and select another venue to display my knives. Emegreancies can and do occur and some flexability must be accepted, but it seems that the same folks are ther present to the end and same leave early most of the time. If we desire to bring more people to the world of knives, we must do our part.
 
It's worse when you go to a show and some of the more well known and less known makers have sold a few knives in the lobby the night before.
 
Hi all,

I'm a collector, not a maker - except as a hobbie - and I post what follows as a collector.

Let me first give the black and white - no gray - summary of my thoughts (then I'll nuance that): Knifemakers are not paid for a show, hence I don't consider they have an ethical obligation for ... well anything. On the other hand I, as a collector, am paying the show's organizer, and I expect *them* to make sure the show is worth it. What that means is that the organizers should take a customer-centric attitude in thinking about how to organize the show to maximize visitors' satisfaction. Too often, I don't think shows are done with the right business perspective.

From a show organizer's perspective, there are some pretty clear choices to make. If you find that by the last day of a 3 day show, the number of visitors, knifemakers, and pieces left have declined dramatically, maybe a 2 day show is in order. Again, I don't think it makes any sense to start Friday... If you fear that vendors will sell their best pieces before the show, organize the show so that it will start *late* Saturday morning - that way many makers will fly in on a red eye as opposed to the day before - and that will cut costs for them too. The show then can last till later in the evening if necessary, but I'm not even sure it would have to.

From a maker's point of view, it doesn't matter with them to sell during the show or the day before. In fact, unless you're dead certain you'll sell your stuff, it makes sense to sell as soon as you can. From a business perspective, I think a show is mostly an advertising and a networking medium. So it makes sense to have your table well furnished. If you sell *and deliver* you best pieces before the show or early into the show, you're shooting yourself in the foot by no having a very attractive table. The right business behavior is probably to say to your earliest customers: "I will sell you the knife now but only deliver it the last day of the show (or mail it insured and express, at my expense, immediately upon my return.)" Of course, not everyone can do that, but the best makers probably can, to some extent at least.

From a maker's point of view, a show is also just one event in many "strings" of relationships with customers. You can find new customers there, you can chat & network with existing customers, show them your new trends, etc. If a long standing customer finds you in the evening before the show, and asks to purchase, and get delivery of, one of your best pieces, you have to think carefully before saying no. In many cases, it might be the right thing to do.

Lets think about the makers' position come Sunday. Their best pieces are gone, the best pieces in the entire show are gone. The best visitors came on the first day of the show and might or might not still be there. The visitors who come only now are probably not very motivated or they are but then they probably understand that the best pieces are gone and come just to chat and network with the makers. So from the maker's point of view, he has to assert whereas sticking around is worth it - whereas he's getting enough contacts from prospective customers, enough tips and social interaction with fellow makers, etc, to stick around.

I think the organizers should be ready to slash their entrance fees when they feel that the numbers of makers and interesting pieces is dwindling in the room.

That's how I think of it.

JD
 
Joss, that is a well thought out post. I agree with almost everything that you have brought forward. The only thing that I would say that is different is this. If an exhibitor has signed a contract that states that he must stay until the end of the show, then he should stay until the end of the show. IMO, what Ed considers to be the right way to participate in a show is how I think all exhibitors should do it.
 
Joss,

You bring up an excellent point. It is the table holders who pay for their own spaces. Which within reason is theres to use as they see fit.

So I agree, the burden would be on the show promoter to:

Have enough "qualified" customers come through the door on Sunday (something they have no control over).

Make it a two day show and stop trying to squeeze every nickel out of the show.

Come noon on Sunday, it's free to get in (this would help as an inducement for table holders to stay).

Lets face it Show promoters are not going to enforce the "contract" to stay all the way to the end. To do so would put an end to their show.

As for selling knives on the night before the show, this is done by one or more makers or dealers before every show all over the world.

Also, Ed what is your feeling on makers not at their tables during the show. You know, things are slow so you walk around and "visit". Perhpaps your off buying material or watching a demonstration. Yes, someone may be covering your table for you. But it's not that person the collector came to see.

What about those makers who have no knives. They only bring pictures, and then they are never at their table. This happens even at the Guild Show.

The reality is for most who cannot make it to the show or until late on Sunday. They have the internet. This is another reason why many of the table holders leave early on Sunday. As Joss pointed out, a show is now merely part of the overall sales strategy for many makers.

Unlike 5 years ago, those pieces that do not sell are not relegated to the closet or safe for the next show. They are taken home, photographed and put on the web site. You then attach the image to your VIP mailing list and hit, enter.

In most cases a makers who's work is in demand will have a sale in 48 hours or less.

Educating people about custom knives is done on many levels. There are now so many shows across the US, most collectors have at least some access to them. Magazines and books provide a great source of information. Now the Internet. This may be the most informative source for custom knife information the world has ever known.

The fact so many makers have a presence on the Internet, shows many understand it's power. As more and more people become Internet friendly, you can expect "virtual" shows in the near future.

The good news is, no one will leave early on Sunday.
 
Good Point Les: The knife maker should be at his table as much as possible. Trouble is for most of us knife shows are like a kid in the candy store. I learned the hard way, STAY at the table. Trouble is, other knife makers ask me to visit their table and cribique, I try to accomodate them. I guess the responsabilities have to be balanced with those of also writing about knives for Blade. I feel the seminars I do are as much a responsability as being at the table. All we can do is our best, we all make mistakes. Also nature calls, food is needed. I try to make visits to other's tables as short as possible. One thing you can bet on, I won't leave early, no matter how slow the show is, once I was there after the folks putting on the show had left.
 
The burden of the show promoter:
* Don't have a heart attack getting the show together.
* Keep a hundred table holders/ knifemakers happy in the same room. Ya right.
* Make sure their is enough help to run the show.
* Make sure the customer is as happy as you are to be there.
* Security.
* Will there be enough patons to make the table holders happy?
* What do you mean I forgot that on the list?
* Will we file for bankruptcy after the show?
* Was the four thousand dollars enough for advertising?
* How much is this hall for two days.

I have helped with one show, but have learned alot from this experience. It was a steep learning curve, anyone who gets a chance to help a show promoter or club should give this a try.
I was told by a knifemaker that next year he was not going to help with the show because making and selling his knives was less nerve racking.
Discounts about getting into the show on Sunday afternoon? Where does that stop. If the knifemakers stays until late Sunday do they get a discount for staying at their table? No.
Should a person who waits until Sunday afternoon to enter the show get a discount? No.
But the patron should be welcomed to the show just like the the customer who was their at 9:00 am on Saturday.
Yep, we did let customers in for free in the last half hour of the show. There were lots of displays presented to the public by collectors who sat at their tables all day for free. We had one display of seven Moran knives shown by one club member. Thats worth something by its self.
The early bird gets the knife of his choice, with no complaints.

Jeff
 
Hi Ed,

I was taking my example to the extreme. We both know that no one stays at their table the entire show. As other "needs" will arise.

The Demo's you and others do are an important part of the show, as far as edcuation is concerned.

Jeff,

I have promoted two Custom Knife Shows. You do not promote knife shows to make money. Ideally, the table fees paid by the makers and dealers get you to the break even point. So the list you wrote is an accurate accounting of some of the "big" things that go through your head.

We tried to work with the collectors coming through the doors. Example, If we saw a guy, with his wife, small child and another in the stroller. Only the guy paid to get in. Making the others pay just made it more difficult for the collector to look.

We never did a three day show (been there, done that, learned the lesson). Since it was a Firday and Saturday show. We only had one person leave early since most planned to stay in Atlanta overnight.

If we did do a Show with a Sunday, I would let people in for free after 1PM on Sunday. This would help put more pepople through the doors and possible increase sales. This could help make a show successful for the makers who stay. As well as keep those who came late from complaninig. After all, if it's free to get in, the price is right!

No matter what happens when it comes to knife shows there will always be a monkey in the wrench!

Hello Mr. Murphy, your table is right over here.
 
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