Unfare trolling warnoing.

[nozh2002]

Hi I have complain on unfair as I think trolling warning.

Eric Isaacson told me that this is what I have to do in this case.

"...You are comparing a Busse Edge to that of an Axe. How is this not trolling? You know those edges are not equal, and yet you compare them. I don't care how you measure them they aren't equal but that is what you said. It's trolling because it is posted just to cause problems. Also if you didn't have everyone on ignore you'd know that you stir up problems in every thread you post in regarding your edge work. This is trolling. If you don't agree then complain in Service and Support..."

"If you want to complain take it to Service and Support and post. You stated that the edge "should be over 40 degree (like for axe), otherwise it is too easy to bend"
So you are stating that the edge needs to be like that of an axe otherwise it will bend. This is trolling."

So this is what I am doing. And according to Eric the only way is to post here.

I had Busse GW edge damaged after working with wood:

After it was reported here I was told that I have too small angle on the edge. I measure angle and at first it appear to be 28.9 degree (14.45 degree per side). I asked Jerry Busse directly in thread

"2 Jerry - What is INFI not recommended edge angles."
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=606727

His answer was:
--------------------------------------------------------
"Vassili,

Your edge is NOT 30 degrees!. . .

Using YOUR measurements, Your edge angle is 14.45 degrees!!!. . . . And that's pretty darn close to paper thin. . . .

All Busse blades are hand sharpened and are usually held in the 20 - 25 degree angle range.

If you had not put Cobalt on your ignore list you would have seen where he made very similar calculations to our own in the General forum and this could've been finished before it got started. . .


30 degrees is pretty robust and we wouldn't put that on a small knife unless we were really hammered at the time. . . (Always a possibility when dealing with Busse Combat )

I hope this helps,

Jerry "
--------------------------
I was talking about total angle not per side total is 28.9 and per side is 14.45. So from his reply on my request I understand that 28.9 degree (14.45. per side) is not recommended and considered as pretty close to paper thin. And this is what lead to my edge troubles - because it was 28.9 (14.45 per side) it bended that terrible way. From his replay I also got that recommended angle is 40-50 degree (20-25 per side).

I think it is pretty logical from his replay to say - about 30 degree (28.9) is not recommended - because it will bend as in my case and 40-50 degree is recommended.

This is why in this thread:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=615535

I replay:
"Laminated steel is pretty standard for Japanese knives (I think it is Hattory who making knives for Fallkniven).

As I understand Fallkniven A1 showed pretty good toughness on Noss4 tests. INFI may be doing better but it is already beyond real needs, So in terms of practical use or let say practical abuse it will stay as good as INFI, but if you are going to intentionally destroy it - INFI will stay longer (top toughness on Noss4 tests).

With this toughness, INFI is not stainless and does not hold edge as other top steels, however I did not test yet VG-10, but think it will performs better.

Also normal 30 degree angle is not recommended by Busse for INFI - considered as paper thin edge, should be over 40 degree (like for axe), otherwise it is too easy to bend.

Thanks, Vassili. "

So as you may see it was what I gto from Jarry Busse replay. I sad "like for axe" because 40-50 degree is what to my knowledge axe are sharpened to.

So I do not think that this is trolling.

I can understand that this post Busse Combat people may not like, but I do not think that this is trolling.

Regarding measurement of edge angle. I made quite an effort to measure edge angle on troubled knife. Here is first trig way:

Then I try different approach using clay:

Everybody can use protractor and see that angle is about 28-30 degree on this picture. However, I misread scale - reade fro other side on slider and thought that it is about 20 or less. To be fair and honest I started this thread, I should not rush, but I thought I made mistake and have to fix it:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=607070

When I found that I was reading from wrong side of scale I post about it right away there - post #26.

After measuring with clay many blades see this thread:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=607437

I came to conclusion that clay measurement are not accurate - it is too soft and sticky. I change media to wax which provided accurate results and for knife in question it showed actually 30-32 degree angle on edge at the part in question:

I also found that quite a bit manufacturers put 30 degree or less on their knives as well as all my own knives with 30 degree angle doing just fine. So 30 degree is normal angle for many edges. Actually I have Busse not sharpened adn with about 35 degree angle.

So I do not think that my post was trolling. It may "cause problems" for Busse peoples but it is important information to know. Once again information provided by Jerry Busse - I did not came up with it. And I own quite a bit of Busse and sharpen them almost all to 30.

Fact that 30 degree Jerry considers as too thin is also strange to me. I was under impression that something wrong with my knife, but they sad that this is actually me to blame because I put this angle. Well, this is important to know - I spend quite an effort sharpening my Busses to 30 degree.

And once again this is not trolling and I do not think this is fair warning.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[Ren the devils trailboss]

I really dont know why your getting all butt hurt about this ...it first of all was just a warning and second of all it had no point value so whats the big deal?

Move on...and quit trying to stir the pot..

 

[Mushroom73]

Aren't knife edges measured from the center of the blade? That give you the grind angle. Total angle (from grind edge to grind edge) is the wedge of the blade.

 

[markksr]

Someone should let Jerry Busse know how his words are being twisted to meet Vassilly's agenda.

 

[Mushroom73]

Someone should let Jerry Busse know how his words are being twisted to meet Vassilly's agenda.

***edited***** I'll move my comment to W&C

 

[Eric Isaacson]

You state the edge is "like for axe". It is incorrect and inflammatory so I gave you a warning for Trolling.

It is only a warning. I would suggest that you not post inflammatory statements then you wouldn't need to worry about infractions/warnings.

Eric

 

[nozh2002]

You state the edge is "like for axe". It is incorrect and inflammatory so I gave you a warning for Trolling.

It is only a warning. I would suggest that you not post inflammatory statements then you wouldn't need to worry about infractions/warnings.

Eric

I am not sure what is wrong when I sad like axe. But I did some researches on google:

http://www.tormekshop.com.au/files/hb10en_124-125.pdf

it is interesting that carpenter axe according to this document should have 20-30 degree on edge and felling axe and hunting axe should be 30-40 degree. But I think I was right about 40 degree - edge like for axe.

Here they also talking about 40 degree on axe edge:

http://forum.multitool.org/index.php?topic=4638.0

Here it is about 45 degree.

http://books.google.com/books?id=4c...hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=10&ct=result

.....

So I do not see why my saying that "40 degree (like for axes)" is trolling?
Is it axe is some kind of taboo world for Busse - "A-word" or something?

Now inflammatory statements - well if I say something what Busse crown may not like - will it be inflammatory statement? So anything I may say what Busse crowd does not like will be inflammotary and considered as trolling? So I should not say anything about Busse at all until it is pleasant for Busse?

Thanks, Vassili.

P.S. More I think about this - less I like it. This concept of inflamotary statement is just way to stop us from saying whatever some crowd do not like. Anyone who get attacked by one or other funclub can be easy blamed for trolling based on the fact that statment was inflamotary.

What is going on? I really do not like this. I am in great need to understand is that "inflamatory statement trolling" is BladeForum new policy?

My experience with Busse I wrote about here was inflamotary.
My test on edge holding was inflamotary not only for Busse.
Was it all trolling?
Should I be banned for this?

 

[jonnymac44]

I could be wrong, but wouldn't any angle, wether 30 or 40 degrees on an axe be bigger and beefier than the same degree edge on a knife. I mean, the axe is made of a bigger, thicker chunk of steel, and it would seem that even if the edge angles were identical, it would be a larger, beefier 30 degree edge on the axe than it would be on a knife. Isn't Vasilli's argument like trying to debate wether a golf ball is sharper than a bowling ball???

 

[GigOne]

nozh, after reading the above. . . . ugh. . . . .errrrr. . . . . .stuff, to put it politely, you leave me no option - - - - - ->

 

[Tony G]

All I can say Nozh2002 is.... who cares?

I say "who cares" because many of us that have used INFI for some years now know what it can do and your posts just make you look like you have no idea what you are talking about. You keep banging away at what it one of the best steels ever made and all it does is make you look like a troll.

If you don't like the knives then don't buy them and move on with life. From what I see you do with them you need a real hard stainless like the ZDPs.

Move on and be happy :thumbup:

.

Hi I have complain on unfair as I think trolling warning.

Eric Isaacson told me that this is what I have to do in this case.

"...You are comparing a Busse Edge to that of an Axe. How is this not trolling? You know those edges are not equal, and yet you compare them. I don't care how you measure them they aren't equal but that is what you said. It's trolling because it is posted just to cause problems. Also if you didn't have everyone on ignore you'd know that you stir up problems in every thread you post in regarding your edge work. This is trolling. If you don't agree then complain in Service and Support..."

"If you want to complain take it to Service and Support and post. You stated that the edge "should be over 40 degree (like for axe), otherwise it is too easy to bend"
So you are stating that the edge needs to be like that of an axe otherwise it will bend. This is trolling."

So this is what I am doing. And according to Eric the only way is to post here.

I had Busse GW edge damaged after working with wood:

After it was reported here I was told that I have too small angle on the edge. I measure angle and at first it appear to be 28.9 degree (14.45 degree per side). I asked Jerry Busse directly in thread

"2 Jerry - What is INFI not recommended edge angles."
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=606727

His answer was:
--------------------------------------------------------
"Vassili,

Your edge is NOT 30 degrees!. . .

Using YOUR measurements, Your edge angle is 14.45 degrees!!!. . . . And that's pretty darn close to paper thin. . . .

All Busse blades are hand sharpened and are usually held in the 20 - 25 degree angle range.

If you had not put Cobalt on your ignore list you would have seen where he made very similar calculations to our own in the General forum and this could've been finished before it got started. . .


30 degrees is pretty robust and we wouldn't put that on a small knife unless we were really hammered at the time. . . (Always a possibility when dealing with Busse Combat )

I hope this helps,

Jerry "
--------------------------
I was talking about total angle not per side total is 28.9 and per side is 14.45. So from his reply on my request I understand that 28.9 degree (14.45. per side) is not recommended and considered as pretty close to paper thin. And this is what lead to my edge troubles - because it was 28.9 (14.45 per side) it bended that terrible way. From his replay I also got that recommended angle is 40-50 degree (20-25 per side).

I think it is pretty logical from his replay to say - about 30 degree (28.9) is not recommended - because it will bend as in my case and 40-50 degree is recommended.

This is why in this thread:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=615535

I replay:
"Laminated steel is pretty standard for Japanese knives (I think it is Hattory who making knives for Fallkniven).

As I understand Fallkniven A1 showed pretty good toughness on Noss4 tests. INFI may be doing better but it is already beyond real needs, So in terms of practical use or let say practical abuse it will stay as good as INFI, but if you are going to intentionally destroy it - INFI will stay longer (top toughness on Noss4 tests).

With this toughness, INFI is not stainless and does not hold edge as other top steels, however I did not test yet VG-10, but think it will performs better.

Also normal 30 degree angle is not recommended by Busse for INFI - considered as paper thin edge, should be over 40 degree (like for axe), otherwise it is too easy to bend.

Thanks, Vassili. "

So as you may see it was what I gto from Jarry Busse replay. I sad "like for axe" because 40-50 degree is what to my knowledge axe are sharpened to.

So I do not think that this is trolling.

I can understand that this post Busse Combat people may not like, but I do not think that this is trolling.

Regarding measurement of edge angle. I made quite an effort to measure edge angle on troubled knife. Here is first trig way:

Then I try different approach using clay:

Everybody can use protractor and see that angle is about 28-30 degree on this picture. However, I misread scale - reade fro other side on slider and thought that it is about 20 or less. To be fair and honest I started this thread, I should not rush, but I thought I made mistake and have to fix it:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=607070

When I found that I was reading from wrong side of scale I post about it right away there - post #26.

After measuring with clay many blades see this thread:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=607437

I came to conclusion that clay measurement are not accurate - it is too soft and sticky. I change media to wax which provided accurate results and for knife in question it showed actually 30-32 degree angle on edge at the part in question:

I also found that quite a bit manufacturers put 30 degree or less on their knives as well as all my own knives with 30 degree angle doing just fine. So 30 degree is normal angle for many edges. Actually I have Busse not sharpened adn with about 35 degree angle.

So I do not think that my post was trolling. It may "cause problems" for Busse peoples but it is important information to know. Once again information provided by Jerry Busse - I did not came up with it. And I own quite a bit of Busse and sharpen them almost all to 30.

Fact that 30 degree Jerry considers as too thin is also strange to me. I was under impression that something wrong with my knife, but they sad that this is actually me to blame because I put this angle. Well, this is important to know - I spend quite an effort sharpening my Busses to 30 degree.

And once again this is not trolling and I do not think this is fair warning.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[nozh2002]

All I can say Nozh2002 is.... who cares?

I say "who cares" because many of us that have used INFI for some years now know what it can do and your posts just make you look like you have no idea what you are talking about. You keep banging away at what it one of the best steels ever made and all it does is make you look like a troll.

If you don't like the knives then don't buy them and move on with life. From what I see you do with them you need a real hard stainless like the ZDPs.

Move on and be happy :thumbup:

.

i am not quite sure what is you point -
------------------------------------------------------------
You keep banging away at what it one of the best steels ever made and all it does is make you look like a troll.
------------------------------------------------------------
First I am not keeping banging INFI here - I had warning from Eric and I disagree with him saying that I am trolling and here is explanation of my position. And only because I was told by Eric to do so.

Second I am not banging INFI - as you may see this is what Jerry sad himself, I provided his words. I did not say anything bad or disrespectful about INFI. I mean for example something like you friends from Busse forum saying about me. Only Jerry's recommendation on edge angle.

Third - if it make me look like a troll, but I am not sure that other would agree, I see quite a bit members who has similar opinion and experience with INFI. So I should not be called troll just because I am not such an INFI enthusiast (as I was year and half ago before testing before real use).

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[gajinoz]

What is going on? I really do not like this. I am in great need to understand is that "inflamatory statement trolling" is BladeForum new policy?

My experience with Busse I wrote about here was inflamotary.
My test on edge holding was inflamotary not only for Busse.
Was it all trolling?
Should I be banned for this?

You got a warning for doing something a mod didn't like. The mods are here to enforce the rules and standards of the forum as they see them. If you don't like what they do, maybe you need to find a forum that more suits your exacting requirements.

You are well known on this forum for interjecting your comments and then getting huffy if anyone dares to disagree with you, and you often do it in a way that is objectionable. You seem to think that you can't possibly be wrong and anyone who disagrees is personally attacking you.

Your constant complaints that "the Busse crowd" attack you only because you don't like Busse is not only nonsense it's also insulting.

People are entitled to their opinions and they are allowed to disagree with things. they should not be subjected to snide comments about being part of "some crowd".

Accept your warning and move on would be my advice.

Oh, yes, feel free to put me on ignore.

 

[Keith Montgomery]

The comment about Busse knives' edges being like those of an axe was not necessary. Comments like that are inflammatory and will create animosity amongst those that support the company. That can be construed as trolling, so I don't think that the warning was unfair.

 

[nozh2002]

I am wondering why Eric asked me to post here? It looks like I have same treatment as on Busse forum and it is all became another Busse fan club public execusion.

Matter is not INFI angle, but unfair warning in trolling. Everything I sad was true and it was not trolling. I think going to discuss INFI is different matter. I provided all this as an explanation of my position that this is unfair warning.

Also I am concern about this trend to accuse anything Busse crowd do not like as an "infamotary statement trolling".

I was thinking that it will be other moderators who will look at my complain. It turns out I have same Busse club here!

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[oxbubba]

Hi I have complain on unfair as I think trolling warning.

Eric Isaacson told me that this is what I have to do in this case.

"...You are comparing a Busse Edge to that of an Axe. How is this not trolling? You know those edges are not equal, and yet you compare them. I don't care how you measure them they aren't equal but that is what you said. It's trolling because it is posted just to cause problems. Also if you didn't have everyone on ignore you'd know that you stir up problems in every thread you post in regarding your edge work. This is trolling. If you don't agree then complain in Service and Support..."

"If you want to complain take it to Service and Support and post. You stated that the edge "should be over 40 degree (like for axe), otherwise it is too easy to bend"
So you are stating that the edge needs to be like that of an axe otherwise it will bend. This is trolling."

So this is what I am doing. And according to Eric the only way is to post here.

I had Busse GW edge damaged after working with wood:

After it was reported here I was told that I have too small angle on the edge. I measure angle and at first it appear to be 28.9 degree (14.45 degree per side). I asked Jerry Busse directly in thread

"2 Jerry - What is INFI not recommended edge angles."
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=606727

His answer was:
--------------------------------------------------------
"Vassili,

Your edge is NOT 30 degrees!. . .

Using YOUR measurements, Your edge angle is 14.45 degrees!!!. . . . And that's pretty darn close to paper thin. . . .

All Busse blades are hand sharpened and are usually held in the 20 - 25 degree angle range.

If you had not put Cobalt on your ignore list you would have seen where he made very similar calculations to our own in the General forum and this could've been finished before it got started. . .


30 degrees is pretty robust and we wouldn't put that on a small knife unless we were really hammered at the time. . . (Always a possibility when dealing with Busse Combat )

I hope this helps,

Jerry "
--------------------------
I was talking about total angle not per side total is 28.9 and per side is 14.45. So from his reply on my request I understand that 28.9 degree (14.45. per side) is not recommended and considered as pretty close to paper thin. And this is what lead to my edge troubles - because it was 28.9 (14.45 per side) it bended that terrible way. From his replay I also got that recommended angle is 40-50 degree (20-25 per side).

I think it is pretty logical from his replay to say - about 30 degree (28.9) is not recommended - because it will bend as in my case and 40-50 degree is recommended.

This is why in this thread:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=615535

I replay:
"Laminated steel is pretty standard for Japanese knives (I think it is Hattory who making knives for Fallkniven).

As I understand Fallkniven A1 showed pretty good toughness on Noss4 tests. INFI may be doing better but it is already beyond real needs, So in terms of practical use or let say practical abuse it will stay as good as INFI, but if you are going to intentionally destroy it - INFI will stay longer (top toughness on Noss4 tests).

With this toughness, INFI is not stainless and does not hold edge as other top steels, however I did not test yet VG-10, but think it will performs better.

Also normal 30 degree angle is not recommended by Busse for INFI - considered as paper thin edge, should be over 40 degree (like for axe), otherwise it is too easy to bend.

Thanks, Vassili. "

So as you may see it was what I gto from Jarry Busse replay. I sad "like for axe" because 40-50 degree is what to my knowledge axe are sharpened to.

So I do not think that this is trolling.

I can understand that this post Busse Combat people may not like, but I do not think that this is trolling.

Regarding measurement of edge angle. I made quite an effort to measure edge angle on troubled knife. Here is first trig way:

Then I try different approach using clay:

Everybody can use protractor and see that angle is about 28-30 degree on this picture. However, I misread scale - reade fro other side on slider and thought that it is about 20 or less. To be fair and honest I started this thread, I should not rush, but I thought I made mistake and have to fix it:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=607070

When I found that I was reading from wrong side of scale I post about it right away there - post #26.

After measuring with clay many blades see this thread:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=607437

I came to conclusion that clay measurement are not accurate - it is too soft and sticky. I change media to wax which provided accurate results and for knife in question it showed actually 30-32 degree angle on edge at the part in question:

I also found that quite a bit manufacturers put 30 degree or less on their knives as well as all my own knives with 30 degree angle doing just fine. So 30 degree is normal angle for many edges. Actually I have Busse not sharpened adn with about 35 degree angle.

So I do not think that my post was trolling. It may "cause problems" for Busse peoples but it is important information to know. Once again information provided by Jerry Busse - I did not came up with it. And I own quite a bit of Busse and sharpen them almost all to 30.

Fact that 30 degree Jerry considers as too thin is also strange to me. I was under impression that something wrong with my knife, but they sad that this is actually me to blame because I put this angle. Well, this is important to know - I spend quite an effort sharpening my Busses to 30 degree.

And once again this is not trolling and I do not think this is fair warning.

Thanks, Vassili.

^^^ holy cow 200 dollars worth of protest over a nickles worth of warning.


bill o.

 

[markksr]

...
Everything I sad was true and it was not trolling.
...

And therein lies the rub. Not everything you said was true. In fact, you used contrived methods to fabricate results that would back up your presupposed conclusions. You have since repeated this misinformation several times in several different threads. This is trolling.

 

[nozh2002]

The comment about Busse knives' edges being like those of an axe was not necessary. Comments like that are inflammatory and will create animosity amongst those that support the company. That can be construed as trolling, so I don't think that the warning was unfair.

Yes this is what worry me most. Now I should whatch what I am saying - what if mentioning of wrong word like in this case "edge 40 degree (like for axes)" be considered as an trolling because "those that support the company" will be unhappy.

Also I should not posting my test results because "those that support the company" will be unhappy - it will be always someone who will be unhappy.

I should not say anything which may hurt someones feelings...

I think that some of "those that support the company" should simple behave as a civilized people and get over the fact that there is other good steels around and whatever they worships is not the super best for everybody. I guess it called being tolerant. And moderators - whatever company they represent should be looking for "those that support the company" to behave instead of calling trolls everybody whom this crowd do not like.

Thanks, Vassili

 

[markksr]

...
Everything I sad was true and it was not trolling.
...

And therein lies the rub. Not everything you said was true. In fact, you used contrived methods to fabricate results that would back up your presupposed conclusions. You have since repeated this misinformation several times in several different threads. This is trolling.

 

[richard j]

that edge is way too thin for anything other than light kitchen duty. no wonder it bent cutting wood. why on earth would you do something like that and ruin a good knife . its nobodys fault but your own that the blade done that.

 

[offsetlover]

Vassili, do yourself a favor and drop it. OK, so you think the guys who support Busse are out to get you because you said something about the edge angle of a Busse being like a axe. Big deal. Like Tony says, who cares? You wanted to complain about getting what you deem as a "unnecessary infraction", yet you come in here and go about doing that and more. You complain about the infraction, then proceed to back your statements up with an argument that to everyone looks like the same old argument you have been using from day one. You really expect to be treated differently now than in the past?

That wont happen until you realize that you are one of the most abrasive members here on the forums who has that "holier than you" attitude. Will that happen? Prolly not, as over the years you have been here you have refused to do that when you have gotten into countless arguments with people over your views. You really want people to be able to post their views on something? Then ST*U and dont jump on them crying "they disagree with me! i cant post my views on this!" and maybe, MAYBE, you will be able to see those other opinions.

You get the responses you do because of that. Eric was right in warning you. I have seen thick edges on knives before. I have seen the edges on Busses. Thick yes, but are they (or like) axes? No. Like JM said, its like comparing a golf ball to a bowling ball. No matter what, they are still balls, just different sizes and uses. Knives are different from axes. Different style, different use.

thats all i have. If im not already there, put me on ignore. Dont really care.