Unimpressed with M390

Jason B.

Jason B.

Joined
Jun 13, 2007
Messages
11,143
I purchased a Knifeworks Grip in M390 around thanksgiving. I sharpen a lot of knives every year and with that comes the experience of grinding pretty much every steel imaginable. M390 is one of those steels that many talk about and I've sharpened enough to at least have the experience to say it sharpens easily and takes a very nice edge regardless of the finished grit. So with all the glowing reports of edge retention I decided to purchase the Grip from Knifeworks.

I received the knife and being my first Grip I was excited to employ it as my new work/EDC knife. The first order of business was to give it a good edge, the factory edge was hardly more than a bump on the grinding wheel that would just begin to rip paper. I started with my 140 Atoma Plate and progressed to my Coarse DMT plate where I stopped. Typically this edge is good for high alloy steels but I quickly developed chipping and rolling in the edge. At first I placed blame on the things I cut throughout the day but after resharpening and continued rolling and chipping I knew something was wrong.

I've used different stone finishes and angles trying to resolve this problem but overall the steel feels a little on the soft side. The edge performance is hardly on par with VG-10 and my 908 in 154cm, nowhere close to S90V or 204P, even has S30V calling it names.

So, the real question is what to do now. I would like to think sending it in and getting the blade swapped out would fix the issue (if even possible) but what's not to say a whole batch of blades didn't received a botched HT? A pat on the back with a "she's fixed!" from BM might sound great but deep down I know the issue will not get properly resolved, no one digs that deep into a problem anymore.
 
Frankly, it sounds like you've given up before you started. If it's being outperformed by VG-10 and 154CM something is very wrong and the company should certainly address it. If, however, you allow hypothetical scenarios concerning large batches of blades to prevent you from actually doing anything about it you may as well toss it in the trash.
 
Sometimes the edge bets better after a few sharpenings, but it sounds like you've sharpened down well past the initial factory edge. Is this correct?
 
Insipid Moniker said:
Frankly, it sounds like you've given up before you started. If it's being outperformed by VG-10 and 154CM something is very wrong and the company should certainly address it. If, however, you allow hypothetical scenarios concerning large batches of blades to prevent you from actually doing anything about it you may as well toss it in the trash.
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I agree. Call the company with your concerns. I d like to hear their response.
 
This guy has over 9,000 posts and is a "waterstone specialist" and ya'll are doubting what he says? Personally, I know nothing about m390. But I'm sure not doubting his word.

Maybe just a bad heat treat. I have no idea. But what I do know it the one he has is bad. And maybe you call Knifeworks and they say "send it back". And maybe you get one from the same batch of, what(?) 200 blades?

Or maybe m390 is just not so good ground thin? But I think there are just too many examples of m390 performing well that that is not the case. So then it would just be that BM doesn't know how to h/t m390?

I'll bet, that with production knives, that the average owner never pushes the steel to anywhere near where users here do. And I would bet that production knife makers don't batch test their blades. Much less each individual knife. So, I'm thinking that this is a pretty common problem that is not well known.

What do ya'll think?:D
 
You know where this is going, send the knife back, ask for a refund and save yourself a lot of headache. I'd bet the whole batch is like the one you have. Then, wait for another batch to come available and try again. That's the main reason Jim Allen with TSF stopped using M390.
 
Insipid Moniker said:
Frankly, it sounds like you've given up before you started. If it's being outperformed by VG-10 and 154CM something is very wrong and the company should certainly address it. If, however, you allow hypothetical scenarios concerning large batches of blades to prevent you from actually doing anything about it you may as well toss it in the trash.
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Been down this road before. I had a rukus I sent in a few years ago only to sell it after being disappointed with BM's service. Sold a lum tanto due to performance issues. Now I have a Grip with a premium steel not performing well, 3 for 3? I must be lucky. I plan on giving them a call but something says I will get the standard treatment, might even get a new knife, but what about the actual problem? New knife arrives and it takes another month of use to find out I have another dud? Remember that saying "fool me once shame on you"?
 
So why did Jim allen stop using m390? Is it hard to nail the H/T? Or is the steel itself kinda finicky as far as the grind? Did he send out the blades in large batches for h/t and have problems? Or, did he do the H/t himself?

Inquiring minds want to know.

This is the Jim Allen of Three Sisters Forge?
 
sirupatespecial said:
So why did Jim allen stop using m390? Is it hard to nail the H/T? Or is the steel itself kinda finicky as far as the grind? Did he send out the blades in large batches for h/t and have problems? Or, did he do the H/t himself?

Inquiring minds want to know.

This is the Jim Allen of Three Sisters Forge?
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+1 I would like to hear a bit more on this as well.
 
This issue is certainly disturbing. I admit I really like BKC, and at least BKC in the past seems to address customer concerns (wrong item, people wants to have blade centered, etc.) but you are talking about whole different issues all together. From what I research, M390 doesn't seems to show a bit more complex HT. It may be possible the batch was not done right.

A minor point I had issue with RSK-1 was that metal shavings were still attached to pivot point. If final inspector has neglected such issue, who know what was doe in HT.

I looked M390 HT from this page ;http://www.simplytoolsteel.com/M390-stainless-steel-data-sheet.html

Thermal Treatments
Preheat: Optional preheat stage for unbalanced geometries or complex designs - Heat to 1550-1600°F (845-870°C) Equalize.

Austenize: 2010-2155°F (1100-1180°C), hold time at temperature 15-30 minutes.

Quench: Air or positive pressure quench (5 bar minimum) to below 125°F (50°C), or salt or interrupted oil quench to about 1000°F (540°C), then air cool to below 125°F (50°C). Accelerated air quenching works well for thin sections, while minimizing warpage.

Tempering: Double temper at 400-1050°F (200-565°C). Hold for 2 hours minimum each time. (See Table) Avoid tempering between 800F-1000F (420-540C), embrittlement may occur. A cryogenic treatment may be used between the first and second tempers. Cryogenic treatments help to attain maximum hardenability and must always be followed by at least one temper. NOTE: M390 may be tempered at 1000-1025°F (540-550°C)for optimum stress relieving, . Tempering in this range may result in slightly lower corrosion resistance.

Cryogenic Treatments: Refrigeration treatments may improve long term dimensional stability by transforming retained austenite. Refrigeration treatments should generally be performed after the first temper, and must be followed by a temper.

Annealing:
Heat to 1650°F (900°C), hold 2 hours, slow cool no faster than 25°F (15°C) per hour to 1100°F (595°C), then furnace cool or cool in still air to room temperature.

Also see: http://www.bucorp.com/media/BOHLER_M390_KNIFE.PDF
 
sirupatespecial said:
So why did Jim allen stop using m390? Is it hard to nail the H/T? Or is the steel itself kinda finicky as far as the grind? Did he send out the blades in large batches for h/t and have problems? Or, did he do the H/t himself?

Inquiring minds want to know.



This is the Jim Allen of Three Sisters Forge?
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Yes, Jim Allen with TSF. I own several Beasts, and on my last beast I ordered, he informed me through our email exchange, he was changing steels from M390 to either CPM154 or S35VN due to the M390 having issues with chipping. Other than what's on his website about the treatment of his steel, don't have a clue who does his heat treat. That's all I know.
 
Jason B. said:
Been down this road before. I had a rukus I sent in a few years ago only to sell it after being disappointed with BM's service. Sold a lum tanto due to performance issues. Now I have a Grip with a premium steel not performing well, 3 for 3? I must be lucky. I plan on giving them a call but something says I will get the standard treatment, might even get a new knife, but what about the actual problem? New knife arrives and it takes another month of use to find out I have another dud? Remember that saying "fool me once shame on you"?
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Don't get me wrong, I hear you and I think you have every right to be disappointed with Benchmade, but unless you want to spend the time and money on annealing and re-heat treating the blade I don't see much other option beyond sending it in. Send it in and if they don't step up to the plate let us know! I don't know about other people, but if they screw you and you post about it that will definitely be something I take into account with future purchasing.

Sending it back does a number of things, first of all it lets Benchmade know there is an issue with at least some percentage of the M390 blades, secondly it puts the impetus on them to fix the issue for future productions so they don't have to deal with replacement costs when they screw it up and lastly it's your best chance of getting either a proper knife or a refund/credit.

Heck, when you send it back send a politely worded email detailing your previous issues with the company. Maybe that'll give them a bit more incentive to do right by you.
 
I'm curious if any of the other models they make using M390 will have similar issues ?
 
338375 said:
I'm curious if any of the other models they make using M390 will have similar issues ?
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I don't know. I have a few M390 folders from Benchmade and the one that I have used more than any other is the TSEK. While I didn't go and do much in terms of reprofiling, resharpening, or any other extensive maintenance on it; it did hold a really nice edge for a long time and there was no chipping, rolling, flat spots, etc. I did get lucky because I got one that has symmetrical bevels and it was adequately sharp. I measured the cutting edge at approximately 40 degrees inclusive.It is disheartening to read this, I want to buy a large Ritter M390 too.
 
Wow. :eek: Maybe we need to add M390 to our list of junk steel:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1178506

(J/K ;) )

Seriously, my understanding is that 204P and M390 are the same formulation and I'm not hearing that people are running into chipping problems when they sharpen their Spyderco Southards. So unless it's proven otherwise, I'm going to assume it's a HT problem.
 
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My only experience with M390 is fondling the Mini-Ritter RSK MK1 that's being given as a gift.

IIRC, in one of the "will BM replace my blade with a different steel" threads, it was said that BM was moving from 154CM to M390.

If true, wouldn't that be a big vote of confidence in M390?
 
TravisH said:
My only experience with M390 is fondling the Mini-Ritter RSK MK1 that's being given as a gift.

IIRC, in one of the "will BM replace my blade with a different steel" threads, it was said that BM was moving from 154CM to M390.

If true, wouldn't that be a big vote of confidence in M390?
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I must have missed that, link?
 
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