Upcoming Buck Knives test

M

mps

Joined
Feb 17, 1999
Messages
155
First off, Welcome Buck Knives. I welcome Joe Houser (assuming he will be involved.
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I find it most ironic that notice of Buck's apperance on this forum group was given today, for it was just today that I ordered 3 of the remaining 5 knives that I want on hand for a folding hunter test that I've been thinking of for quite some time. The goal is going to be to test, as objectively as possible, several "Folding Hunter" shapes from Buck and other companies. My quest in this is simply to find which large "folding hunter" style by _any_ manufacturer might make the best all around work knife.

I've been wanting to do this for awhile, since I keep coming back to a 25 yo Buck 110 Folding Hunter when my more modern knives let me down. That's plenty high praise in and of itself.

Hopefully, if all goes as planned, I will have the aforementioned vintage 110, a Buck Selector, a Bear MGC damascus FH, a vintage non-locking Camillus folding hunter, a Puma Master, a BuckCote(tm) ti-ni 110Z5, a Ti handled Buck 560, a pair of Explorer Knock offs, a Kershaw, a Browning 440C mdl 609, a Schrade Old Timer, a Normark "Big Swede", and _hopefully_ a Buck Master Series 110, and I might toss in a Buck Odysessy and a Buck Crosslock Solitaire just for jollies.

I realize that's hardly a drop in the bucket in terms of what's out there, but it's what's available to me at this point. My idea is to be as objective as possible and simply put all the knives through exactly the same tests and post the results with no bias towards or against anything.

It will probably take me at least another 2 weeks to get the last remaining knives, and get time to do the tests and post the data, but it will happen. If you have input as to what you think would constitute good tests, I'm somewhat open to reasonable suggestions. At the moment I'm mostly concentrating on zip cutting cardboard and slicing hard lay poly rope and simple handle and lock tests and ease of resharpening.

Welcome, Buck!
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But I'll probably boot up whatever the results are on either the general or the reviews forums.
mps
 
MPS,

Joe H will be involved as he is my direct Boss. We dicuss the comments form here and other places regularly.

I am most interested in your testing... Keep in mind that a 560 and a 110 have the same internal parts... You may not wanna test both.... Also when the lock fails, most time the rocker is corrupted.. Do not trust any lock back that has failed even once for normal use...

Jeff

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Jeff "Without data it's just another opinion" Hubbard
 
MPS,

I though about the diff in the 110/560, and I think that it would be good to test both styles. The inner working may be the same, bu tthe way they are pinned togheter are night and day. It would be interesting to see if there are is a drasctic diff in lock failure...
Jeff



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Jeff "Without data it's just another opinion" Hubbard
 
Just to clarify something, since I'm paying for these and plan to keep them, I won't be doing any destructive tests.

mps.
 
MPS,

I thought you were gonna do destructive tests because you a said you were going to test locks. My Quality Tech and I have alot of fun ripping knives apart. It's cool to hear them squeal!!!
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Jeff

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Jeff "Without data it's just another opinion" Hubbard
 
MPS, could you do a differtial grit comparasion on the knives with different blade steels? It would be interesting to see how the different steels responded to different grits. Even a simple two way test would be really interesting. Would the ranking be the same if a x-coarse was used as a medium for example?

-Cliff
 
Cliff, you and I must be on a similar wavelength. I was just sitting here pondering how best to do that very thing without it getting too tedious. As best as I can tell, this is going to be a series of posts rather than one info dump since this format seems to frown on 100,000 word exposes.
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Anyway, here's my q to you: How would you suggest that I best compare different sharpening grits and edge profiles given that some of these will start "factory fresh" and some will have the bennefit of decades of 'experience'?

I figure that I'll just clearly label the *new* ones as having a factory edge, and will start the 'used' knives off with a fine ceramic polished edge. Then, I'll use them til that gets dull and report. Then, I'll sharpen them all to say mid grade alumina oxide, test and report. Then I'll resharpen them all only to coarse grade alumina oxide, test and report. There are several problems with that system. One potential problem is that perhaps alumina oxide isn't the best choice for each type of sharpening. It's what I can do uniformly for each grade, and happens to be what I like, but it doesn't take into account several variables.

I've got no difficulty believing that some alloys/heat treats might respond better to specific hones than others. For instance, I note that some makers spec India hones, and some spec Arkansas hones, and some don't much spec anything. I've got a lot more thoughts on this than should be buried in a little read Buck forum post. Unfortunately nobody in the shop answer forum seems to want to tackle best coarse edge alloy composition, much less selecting the best hone for each individual alloy. Yet, I'm slowing learning that perhaps that is what is really indicated.

I guess what I'm getting at is that I'm coming to believe in not only different grit strategies, but different abrasive strategies for different steels. I'm not sure that I want this to become a twenty thousand dollar multi year project involving testing every knife against every known sharpening gambit.

Despite having a pretty good selection of various sharpening gear available to me, I'm thinking seriously about limiting this to just stuff that Karla KnifeOwner would likely want to have at hand.

Thoughts??
mps
 
Jeff, if MPS does destructive tests and sends you the pieces will you replace the knives? hehe.
 
I would certainly be open to testing to destruction, if Buck, (or any other mfr.) wanted to offer full replacement.
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I think that knowing the failure points is important, but as long as I'm doing this on my dime, then I'm hesitant to really thrash these things just to do it. I think, to date, I've got around $400-$500 into the knives in front of me, and I'm still waiting on 2 of them, and at least 4 are non-replaceable, due to being discontinued.

Looking at a whole desktop full of various co.s versions of folding hunter styles, I think that one could indeed argue that some of these come with factory defects just based on materials selection. ;( But, that comment isn't necessarily aimed any more at Buck than at any of 1/2 dozen other mfrs. I've just always wondered if merely selecting 425M or 420 or 440A steels wouldn't constitute a defacto defect in material.
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Reading the Limited Warranty statement that comes with Buck knives has always made me wonder what, exactly, constitutes abuse. Does chopping through a 1" Oak dowel constitute warranty voiding abuse? How 'bout locking the knife open and whacking the spine against a workbench to see if the lock will fail? How 'bout locking the knife open in a vise, and applying increasing amounts of weight to the handle to test the lock? I can see how the vise test might be considered abusive, but the first two mentioned things ought to be considered fairly normal, I would think.

I notice that none of the above are mentioned in the specific things NOT covered by warranty, but then they can't possibly mention every stupid thing to do to a knife.
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I also notice that there's a caution against chopping through nails and bolts, which at first glance might seem perfectly reasonable. But then I seem to remember that "back when" Buck used to demonstrate the superiority of their knives by doing just exactly that, in a fashion that reminds me most of a modern day Lynn Thompson. (hee, hee, hee) It's funny how some companies that got their name using showboat tactics, now thumb their noses at other companies using similar tactics.
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It's worth noting that neither Buck nor Cold Steel has ever advised the lowly customer to try to duplicate the very tests that they'd use as sales tools.
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At any rate, I'm not going to be doing any destructive tests on these. Just some simple things to try to guage some data points that might be of interest to the average consumer, like me, who just wants a good durable work knife. I'm most curious about the egde holding ability of knives produced by a company that has always used that as a sales pitch. And I'm very, very curious about the BuckCote one. Nuff said for now.

mps
 
About the tests used to promote knives or whatever, if they are not covered by the warrenty then I just ignore them - unless they are breaking point tests. If they imply that the knives can do something without damaging them - which a lot of them do - then they should stand by it.

The grit test you suggest is exactly what I was thinking about. Your comment about different abrasives is important. Diamond stones are becoming very common now and they do not take well to the cheaper stainless steels. I have a Buck skinner and if I try to sharpen it on an x-coarse DMT pad it tears the edge apart and cracks large pieces off of it. This leaves an edge that uneven that you can visibly see the chips. A softer stone like alumina oxide will not do this to the edge.

Hey if you want even more work you could try altering the edge angle as well. One of the great things about really hard tough steels is that they can take a very acute edge much better than the low quality steels. I would bet for example that a Buck in BG-42 at 15 degrees would show a much greater performance over the standard steel than when both were sharpened at 25 degrees.

I will be looking at this aspect in detail in a few months when I get some knives in steels that are supposed to have exactly this property. I will be looking at 440V, 10V, Talonite and D2 (and the regular AUS-8A and such). I am betting that the really hard abrasion resistant steels will make much better light utility / hunting knives because of the ability to take an extreemly low angle on the cutting bevel.

-Cliff
 
mps: are the knives's sheaths all pretty equal? One reason I've always liked the 110/112 is because it has a good sheath that hangs well on my belt.

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Frank
jqsurf@worldnet.att.net


 
Is there any set method to do a destructive lock test? I think that Sal Glesser once discussed this, especially were the load is put. But I agree, with Cliff, if the mfg's are willing to make good on the destructive tests then there is no point in doing this.

Maybe I'll send you my meyerco strut-n-cut. that thing has cost me a $200 windshield, so I would mind seeing it destroyed, hehe.
 
Cliff, interesting points. What I may do, so as not to get too bogged down initially is do what I had planned, and post the results. Then, since I'm under no real time deadline, I can always pick out a few samples for more extensive testing of a variety of sharpening angles, grits and strategies. I see this whole thing as potentially an ongoing effort to educate myself about all things edge.

I noticed awhile back that on some knives I can get a most aggressive edge with a mill bastard file and on others the file doesn't do much. Your comments about the X coarse DMT diamond hone is interesting. It's also interesting in that I've noticed that recent Buck knives wear exactly as you're suggesting. Cutting cardboard with one long enough to dull the edge produces a sort of chipped look like maybe the alloy matrix is disentegrating. What's interesting is that it takes a good long while to get them to that point, unlike some soft high carbon steels that tend towards that crumbled look early on.

At present, I've only got the coarse blue DMT bench hone, and have just about given up on diamond hones of any kind, but you may have supplied one piece of the puzzle.

Frank, good point. Some of the knives don't come with any sheath, some come with laughably thin nylon ones and some come with fairly competent nylon or leather ones. What I've started doing, is putting up individual knife reviews in the review forum. There, I'll go into more detail about the specifics of the knives involved, including the sheath supplied. You are right that a good sheath is something that both more mfrs and customers should think about. It's rarely thought of when price shopping, but can really mean the difference in carrying a knife and letting it sit in a drawer.

Cobalt, I would ask about the windshield..... but I'm out of time. Let me guess, you brought home the Strut n Cut and your wife/girlfriend/sigOther said, "Another damn knife!" and tossed it through the windshield of the vintage Chevy Chevelle SS that you've had since high school and have been tediously refurbishing in your spare time. No? Oh well.

mps
 
MPS, when the softer carbon steels aggressive edge wears out can you restore it with a steel or so you have to file another one on?

-Cliff
 
mps, I'm sure we all have stupid knife stories and the one with the strut-n-cut is mine. After getting the knife I was in our new truck with my wife driving. I had the strut-n-cut out and was flicking it open and shut with my index finger, since it is so fast to open. Since it is cam/spring loaded it opens and closes with equal speed, FAST. As I was doing this I happened to get the edge of my middle finger in the path of the closing blade as it was closing. Nice cut and blood. I got the bleeding stopped and after a few minutes started doing the flicking again, not having learned my lesson. My wife asked me to put it away, but do I listen, no, as usuall. The next time the blade closes on my thumb, real bad, slices me real good. I get enraged and want to snap that little blade in two(as if it had a mind of it's own), but control myself and toss it towards the floorboard. The knife bounces off the dash and hits the windshield of the truck, CRACK! Nice little spider web on our windshield. My wife is pissed at me, I'm pissed at me and now we have to spend $250.00 replacing the windshield. Of course later on my wife thought it was funny and had to go and tell the whole family so everyone else could laugh about it, or at me, at my expense. I don't think I'll be doing that one again.
 
In relation to a set destuctive test method:
We at Buck have developed a method to test our product consistently. WE aloso use the same oparameters when testing competitors products. This gives us a close comparison between different designs. We are able to attribute the failure points to the desin rather than the locating of the testing. WE use a Tinues/Olsen hydralic tester, and have a tooling jig that can hold virtualy any knife in any position. Lock testing is done both in the closing direction and in the direction of overloading the stop mech.
Both directions are important. We also do not do just one knife... We do a MIN of 35 knives, in each direction. Large samplings are needed to reduce stat errors in data sets. I'd really like to check more, but destructive testing is rather, well, you know, destructive ($$$$). Knives are then taken apart and analysied.

Jeff

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Jeff "Without data it's just another opinion" Hubbard
 
Cliff, a full answer to your q about aggressive edges probably best belongs somewhere else. If truth be told, I don't even have a full answer, since it's something that I'm constantly learning.

For a partial answer, it depends on the type of steel, the *thickness* of the steel, what the knife has been used for, and for all I know, the phase of the moon.
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For instance, some thin soft carbon steel Old Hickory kitchen knives can be kept going almost indefinitely using nothing but a coarse striated butcher's steel. The steels I like for that resemble fine rat tail files more than the smooth steels that some of the polished edge crowd seem to like. On some thicker carbon steel blades it seems like the edge just about has to be refiled when gone, like on an ax or machete. (And I'm not talking just about ding removal, but rather the difference between getting a coarse edge on a thin vs thick edge.) Where things start getting weird and interesting is in trying to duplicate that edge on various types of stainless. Oddly, some of the cheap alloys take to it pretty well, and yet I'm nearly convinced that some types will likely never even get that type edge regardless of method. More on that later. Perhaps we should take this portion of dialogue over to Shoptalk or General Forums?

mps
 
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