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Update of my Review of the Apex
- Thread starter Johan
- Start date
- Joined
- Nov 3, 1999
- Messages
- 1,684
Johan!
You mention that the 204 is o.k. to touch up the work the Apex initially does. I have an older 203 and when I checked the angle of the tri-rods, my protractor read 22 1/2 degrees, or 45 overall. I know the newer 204 says it's 40 degrees, overall. How significant is that 5 degree difference? Do you think that the shallower angle of the 204 lends itself to superior edge retention?
I just purchased a Sebenza and have been able to keep it fairly sharp with my 203. I am saving up now for an Apex, but in the mean time I am trying to come up with a way to polish the Sebenza with the abrasive tape and the 203. I may have something up my sleeve! I'll post my results after I get some literature and product from 3M!
Thanks for your thoughts!
Barry H.
You mention that the 204 is o.k. to touch up the work the Apex initially does. I have an older 203 and when I checked the angle of the tri-rods, my protractor read 22 1/2 degrees, or 45 overall. I know the newer 204 says it's 40 degrees, overall. How significant is that 5 degree difference? Do you think that the shallower angle of the 204 lends itself to superior edge retention?
I just purchased a Sebenza and have been able to keep it fairly sharp with my 203. I am saving up now for an Apex, but in the mean time I am trying to come up with a way to polish the Sebenza with the abrasive tape and the 203. I may have something up my sleeve! I'll post my results after I get some literature and product from 3M!
Thanks for your thoughts!
Barry H.
Barry, there is a certain amount of diference made by the extra 5 degrees in the 203. I have both the 203 and the 204, I found that it was easier to get a sharper edge with the 204 than the 203, but the 203 still produced good edges. I wouldn't stop using the 203, but I might think about upgrading.
Good luck with whatever you're trying with the polishing tapes. Keep one thing in mind though, you can put a mirror edge on a "rough" edge. Think of it as like sanding a piece of hardwood. If you skip grits, you'll end up with scratches you can't get out and therefor a surface which isn't truly flat. What I'm saying is before you start polishing, make sure you've got good even, flat bevels. Then the polishing will really make a difference. Either way, let me know how things go.
------------------
"Better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heav'n"
John Milton
There are only two types of people; those who understand this, and those who think they do.
Good luck with whatever you're trying with the polishing tapes. Keep one thing in mind though, you can put a mirror edge on a "rough" edge. Think of it as like sanding a piece of hardwood. If you skip grits, you'll end up with scratches you can't get out and therefor a surface which isn't truly flat. What I'm saying is before you start polishing, make sure you've got good even, flat bevels. Then the polishing will really make a difference. Either way, let me know how things go.
------------------
"Better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heav'n"
John Milton
There are only two types of people; those who understand this, and those who think they do.
The key to the stroke is to hold the blade firmly but relaxed and stroke fore to aft, left to right, cutting on both strokes. It sounds more difficult than it is, but you get it with a little practice. That being said, you do need to practice a while before it gets really easy. I've had mine now for about a month and I have no problem with re-curves, chisels, deep bellies, bowies, and even khukris. Just keep practicing. Hope this helps.
------------------
"Better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heav'n"
John Milton
There are only two types of people; those who understand this, and those who think they do.
------------------
"Better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heav'n"
John Milton
There are only two types of people; those who understand this, and those who think they do.
- Joined
- Oct 31, 1999
- Messages
- 392
Elim,
Go slow and methodical. I has the same prob. Forget about speed and stay slow. After awhile you'll have the hang of it without even realizing it.
Johan,
Did the BM Axis give you any problems with its recurve?
------------------
Frank Norman
Attitude - The difference between an adventure and an ordeal.
Go slow and methodical. I has the same prob. Forget about speed and stay slow. After awhile you'll have the hang of it without even realizing it.
Johan,
Did the BM Axis give you any problems with its recurve?
------------------
Frank Norman
Attitude - The difference between an adventure and an ordeal.
Yes, it does take some practice. I have the Pro and I practiced with old knives at first. The secret is to try to hold the knife as steady as possible, moving only the arm in a smooth consistent motion. You really don't need to apply any pressure - the stones will cut with very little downward force (just the weight of the arm and stone is sufficient). The pro is very well made and attention to detail is excellent. I modified the edge of the blade table by taking a piece of right angle aluminum molding and using double-back foam mounting tape and afixed it to the edge of the table. This prevents the edge from getting "chewed up". I told Ben about this and he said a lot of people make their own mods, some of them pretty ingenious. Also, using 1" blue painters tape over the edge and back of the knife blades help to prevent scratches.
[This message has been edited by skhori (edited 02-03-2000).]
[This message has been edited by skhori (edited 02-03-2000).]
[This message has been edited by skhori (edited 02-03-2000).]
[This message has been edited by skhori (edited 02-03-2000).]
Smooth Bone, I had no problem with the re-curve on my 710 or my 750. The only thing that caused any problem was my khukri, and that was only on the very tight inside curve near the handle. I still managed to sharpen it though
------------------
"Better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heav'n"
John Milton
There are only two types of people; those who understand this, and those who think they do.
------------------
"Better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heav'n"
John Milton
There are only two types of people; those who understand this, and those who think they do.
I tried posting this yesterday afternoon but I guess it didn't take.
I have been reading the posts regarding the EdgePro system with great interest. Johan's review is excellent! I have also recently read the "Razor Edge Book of Sharpening". Between Joe Talmadge's FAQ and the book, it really fills in alot of gaps. Being a real newbie to this I have some questions regarding the EdgePro system and would appreciate any advice that you folks could offer. Right now I am looking at buying either the EdgePro or Razor Edge system but I'm leaning more towards the EdgePro based upon all of the informative posts here. I'm really looking for a system that is easy to use and as "idiot-proof" as possible. Here are a few questions I have:
1) The Razor Edge book explains in fairly significant detail the need for establishing a good relief angle on a blade and then finishing the cutting edge with a primary edge angle which is set higher. Does the EdgePro allow for setting up these two angles? Have any of you sharpened your knives on an EdgePro using this method of relief (or secondary edge)angle and primary angle?
2) The book makes a pretty good case for using dry hones or stones. I see that the EdgePro uses "waterstones". How difficult is it to work with waterstones? What do you think of substituting other types of stones with the EdgePro or would that defeat the purpose of the system?
3) I have a few knives that have black anodized or Bt (Benchmade) coatings. It would seem to me that in the process of establishing a good relief according to the book, this would require scrubbing a fairly significant width of the blade. (If you have the book, see the diagram on page 61) This would require scratching off quite a bit of the black coatings. I know that aesthetically it's not going to look that great, but what about the protective qualities that the coating imparts to the blade. Do you folks have any thoughts on this?
(FYI - My knives consist of a BM 720Bt & 3500, MOD Trident & Hornet (both with anodized coatings. The one thing that amazed me was how dull the two Masters of Defense knives were when I recieved them. so, you can see why I'm in the market for a good sharpening system.)
I really appreciate any advice that you could offer. BladeForums has really been a terrific education for me since I recently discovered it.
Thanks!
------------------
"It is wonderfull to be here in that great state of Chicago" - Vice President Dan Quayle
I have been reading the posts regarding the EdgePro system with great interest. Johan's review is excellent! I have also recently read the "Razor Edge Book of Sharpening". Between Joe Talmadge's FAQ and the book, it really fills in alot of gaps. Being a real newbie to this I have some questions regarding the EdgePro system and would appreciate any advice that you folks could offer. Right now I am looking at buying either the EdgePro or Razor Edge system but I'm leaning more towards the EdgePro based upon all of the informative posts here. I'm really looking for a system that is easy to use and as "idiot-proof" as possible. Here are a few questions I have:
1) The Razor Edge book explains in fairly significant detail the need for establishing a good relief angle on a blade and then finishing the cutting edge with a primary edge angle which is set higher. Does the EdgePro allow for setting up these two angles? Have any of you sharpened your knives on an EdgePro using this method of relief (or secondary edge)angle and primary angle?
2) The book makes a pretty good case for using dry hones or stones. I see that the EdgePro uses "waterstones". How difficult is it to work with waterstones? What do you think of substituting other types of stones with the EdgePro or would that defeat the purpose of the system?
3) I have a few knives that have black anodized or Bt (Benchmade) coatings. It would seem to me that in the process of establishing a good relief according to the book, this would require scrubbing a fairly significant width of the blade. (If you have the book, see the diagram on page 61) This would require scratching off quite a bit of the black coatings. I know that aesthetically it's not going to look that great, but what about the protective qualities that the coating imparts to the blade. Do you folks have any thoughts on this?
(FYI - My knives consist of a BM 720Bt & 3500, MOD Trident & Hornet (both with anodized coatings. The one thing that amazed me was how dull the two Masters of Defense knives were when I recieved them. so, you can see why I'm in the market for a good sharpening system.)
I really appreciate any advice that you could offer. BladeForums has really been a terrific education for me since I recently discovered it.
Thanks!
------------------
"It is wonderfull to be here in that great state of Chicago" - Vice President Dan Quayle
(I tried posting this yesterday afternoon but I guess it didn't take.)
I have been reading the posts regarding the EdgePro system with great interest. Johan's review is excellent! I have also recently read the "Razor Edge Book of Sharpening". Between Joe Talmadge's FAQ and the book, it really fills in alot of gaps. Being a real newbie to this I have some questions regarding the EdgePro system and would appreciate any advice that you folks could offer. Right now I am looking at buying either the EdgePro or Razor Edge system but I'm leaning more towards the EdgePro based upon all of the informative posts here. I'm really looking for a system that is easy to use and as "idiot-proof" as possible. Here are a few questions I have:
1) The Razor Edge book explains in fairly significant detail the need for establishing a good relief angle on a blade and then finishing the cutting edge with a primary edge angle which is set higher. Does the EdgePro allow for setting up these two angles? Have any of you sharpened your knives on an EdgePro using this method of relief (or secondary edge) angle and primary angle?
2) The book makes a pretty good case for using dry hones or stones. I see that the EdgePro uses "waterstones". How difficult is it to work with waterstones? What do you think of substituting other types of stones with the EdgePro or would that defeat the purpose of the system?
3) I have a few knives that have black anodized or Bt (Benchmade) coatings. It would seem to me that in the process of establishing a good relief according to the book, this would require scrubbing a fairly significant width of the blade. (If you have the book, see the diagram on page 61) This would require scratching off quite a bit of the black coatings. I know that aesthetically it's not going to look that great, but what about the protective qualities that the coating imparts to the blade. Do you folks have any thoughts on this?
(FYI - My knives consist of a BM 720Bt & 3500, MOD Trident & Hornet (both with anodized coatings). The one thing that amazed me was how dull the two Masters of Defense knives were when I received them. So, you can see why I'm in the market for a good sharpening system.)
I really appreciate any advice that you could offer. BladeForums has really been a terrific education for me since I recently discovered it.
Thanks!
------------------
"It is wonderfull to be here in that great state of Chicago" - Vice President Dan Quayle
I have been reading the posts regarding the EdgePro system with great interest. Johan's review is excellent! I have also recently read the "Razor Edge Book of Sharpening". Between Joe Talmadge's FAQ and the book, it really fills in alot of gaps. Being a real newbie to this I have some questions regarding the EdgePro system and would appreciate any advice that you folks could offer. Right now I am looking at buying either the EdgePro or Razor Edge system but I'm leaning more towards the EdgePro based upon all of the informative posts here. I'm really looking for a system that is easy to use and as "idiot-proof" as possible. Here are a few questions I have:
1) The Razor Edge book explains in fairly significant detail the need for establishing a good relief angle on a blade and then finishing the cutting edge with a primary edge angle which is set higher. Does the EdgePro allow for setting up these two angles? Have any of you sharpened your knives on an EdgePro using this method of relief (or secondary edge) angle and primary angle?
2) The book makes a pretty good case for using dry hones or stones. I see that the EdgePro uses "waterstones". How difficult is it to work with waterstones? What do you think of substituting other types of stones with the EdgePro or would that defeat the purpose of the system?
3) I have a few knives that have black anodized or Bt (Benchmade) coatings. It would seem to me that in the process of establishing a good relief according to the book, this would require scrubbing a fairly significant width of the blade. (If you have the book, see the diagram on page 61) This would require scratching off quite a bit of the black coatings. I know that aesthetically it's not going to look that great, but what about the protective qualities that the coating imparts to the blade. Do you folks have any thoughts on this?
(FYI - My knives consist of a BM 720Bt & 3500, MOD Trident & Hornet (both with anodized coatings). The one thing that amazed me was how dull the two Masters of Defense knives were when I received them. So, you can see why I'm in the market for a good sharpening system.)
I really appreciate any advice that you could offer. BladeForums has really been a terrific education for me since I recently discovered it.
Thanks!
------------------
"It is wonderfull to be here in that great state of Chicago" - Vice President Dan Quayle
Larry in KY
Banned
- Joined
- Feb 8, 1999
- Messages
- 305
Elim,
Just get a couple of old kitchen knives and start sharpening...you will get the hang of it and when you do you will be surprised at how easy it all is!!
Just get a couple of old kitchen knives and start sharpening...you will get the hang of it and when you do you will be surprised at how easy it all is!!
- Joined
- Nov 3, 1999
- Messages
- 1,684
Hi Johan!
I took some of your advise pertaining to the 204 upgrade and bought one. It certainly does a better job, imho, than the 203. But as you point out, that still doesn't get a polished edge. So I have done a little homework and have come up with some ideas for those who can't afford to step up to the Edge Pro sharpeners. I came across a supplier of triangular ultra hard arkansas stones that will fit in a 203 or 204. Have you tried this? Also, I live in St. Paul, home of 3M. They have several differnt lapping polishing papers on a stickit surface. I think it would be simple to afix a strip of these abrasive polish papers to the 204 stones and work the blade from the base up. I'm in the process of getting some samples from local distributers. I'll let you know my results!
Barry H.
I took some of your advise pertaining to the 204 upgrade and bought one. It certainly does a better job, imho, than the 203. But as you point out, that still doesn't get a polished edge. So I have done a little homework and have come up with some ideas for those who can't afford to step up to the Edge Pro sharpeners. I came across a supplier of triangular ultra hard arkansas stones that will fit in a 203 or 204. Have you tried this? Also, I live in St. Paul, home of 3M. They have several differnt lapping polishing papers on a stickit surface. I think it would be simple to afix a strip of these abrasive polish papers to the 204 stones and work the blade from the base up. I'm in the process of getting some samples from local distributers. I'll let you know my results!
Barry H.
Barry, glad you liked the 204, I hate giving bad advice
If you can get the higher grit stones, you should be able to get a polished finish. I'd be really curious to know what kind of results you get; and you're right-it would be a great alternative to those who don't want to spend the cash on the Apex. They should buy one anyway though!
Bothrops, I'm glad you liked my review, more importantly I hope it provided you with good information. Now, as for your quesions:
The Apex allows you to set the angle of the stones (and therefore the edge) at ANYTHING from 10-25 degrees. It's not problem to cut a relief angle and then a primary cutting edge. I haven't tried this on my knives, but I'm very familiar with the principal. I'm a woodworker and all of my chisels and plane blades are gound with a secondary or mirco-bevel.
The advantage of water stones is that they cut VERY quickly, much faster than oil stones. The disadvantage is that they wear more quickly too. I've used water, oil, and diamond stones and I prefer water. Just my opinion though. If you can get substitute stones in 1/8" thickness and some blanks for Ben at EdgePro you can use those instead of the water stones. As long as you keep the thickness of the substitute stones the same as what the apex was set for, it won't affect the pre-marked angles.
If you're going to remove the black coating to form a relief, it is possible to get corrosion. It's not much of an issue on the primary edge because use and sharpening will remove all rust. I'm not sure about the relief edge. However, Sentry Solutions' Tuff-Cloth is a great corrosion inhibator; I use it on all my knives. One thing, before you cut a relief in all your knives, try sharpening one of your knives with as perusual on the Apex and see what you think of the edge, you may find that your don't need the relief to get the edge you want. Keep in mind that all my knives are sharpened at 21 degrees and they don't so much cut as they disolve.
I hope this helps you and if you have any other questions fire away!
------------------
"Better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heav'n"
John Milton
There are only two types of people; those who understand this, and those who think they do.
Bothrops, I'm glad you liked my review, more importantly I hope it provided you with good information. Now, as for your quesions:
The Apex allows you to set the angle of the stones (and therefore the edge) at ANYTHING from 10-25 degrees. It's not problem to cut a relief angle and then a primary cutting edge. I haven't tried this on my knives, but I'm very familiar with the principal. I'm a woodworker and all of my chisels and plane blades are gound with a secondary or mirco-bevel.
The advantage of water stones is that they cut VERY quickly, much faster than oil stones. The disadvantage is that they wear more quickly too. I've used water, oil, and diamond stones and I prefer water. Just my opinion though. If you can get substitute stones in 1/8" thickness and some blanks for Ben at EdgePro you can use those instead of the water stones. As long as you keep the thickness of the substitute stones the same as what the apex was set for, it won't affect the pre-marked angles.
If you're going to remove the black coating to form a relief, it is possible to get corrosion. It's not much of an issue on the primary edge because use and sharpening will remove all rust. I'm not sure about the relief edge. However, Sentry Solutions' Tuff-Cloth is a great corrosion inhibator; I use it on all my knives. One thing, before you cut a relief in all your knives, try sharpening one of your knives with as perusual on the Apex and see what you think of the edge, you may find that your don't need the relief to get the edge you want. Keep in mind that all my knives are sharpened at 21 degrees and they don't so much cut as they disolve.
I hope this helps you and if you have any other questions fire away!
------------------
"Better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heav'n"
John Milton
There are only two types of people; those who understand this, and those who think they do.
Johan,
Thanks a bunch for the quick reply and great advice! You make an excellent point about trying the EdgePro first before worrying about relief angles.
I really appreciate it.
------------------
"It is wonderfull to be here in that great state of Chicago" - Vice President Dan Quayle
Thanks a bunch for the quick reply and great advice! You make an excellent point about trying the EdgePro first before worrying about relief angles.
I really appreciate it.
------------------
"It is wonderfull to be here in that great state of Chicago" - Vice President Dan Quayle
No problem, hope it helps. Hey, I just realized that this is the 35th post-my first flaming topic! Congratulations to me
------------------
"Better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heav'n"
John Milton
There are only two types of people; those who understand this, and those who think they do.
------------------
"Better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heav'n"
John Milton
There are only two types of people; those who understand this, and those who think they do.