Upgrading Advice

[ralph029]

I can hear 10,000 folks groaning.
The problems with the interwebs is that there is SO MUCH info out there, it is hard to get concise information without a concise question.

I have been using my KME et up for years with great success. It certainly has it's limitations which I'm sure every system does. (BTW... this is post not about sharpening systems.) I have some extra $$$ in hand and I think it's time to try a new system (upgrade?). I still need to decide between the R2 and Kadet.
My question is about hones. I have a decent set up now all for my KME. I have:
50 through 1500 diamond hones
An Arkansas Translucent
A strop set up at 4 microns

What I primarily sharpen:
4 - 6 EDC's
2 - 4 fixed blade fishing knives
A couple chisels
Scissors
2 sets of Japanese kitchen knives
1 cleaver (no I can't sharpen this on my KME)

Any advise on upgrading my current hones? Since I will be able to go up to 6", is it worth a full upgrade or simply adding a few things to bridge some gaps? I would imagine that if I was hand sharpening that the feel of particular stones would warrant trying different things but since I'm using a guided system, is there enough difference in feel alone to warrant a change?

I sure would appreciate any thoughts or comments in general. Thanks!
R

 

[Revival29]

Just last week I upgraded from a KME to a Hapstone R2 and the R2 is awesome.

For the KME, I have the 50-1500 grit, the Arkansas translucent, and Shapton glass stones in 1k, 4k, 8k and kangaroo strops with 4 and 1.5 micron.

Per the recommendation of 777 Edge , I got the Venev Ursa Diamond stones (6” long but 0.5” thick). I didn’t realize the stones were so skinny and contemplated returning it, but decided to keep it and glad I did.

The Ursa stones have been amazing thus far. Definitely a different feel that the KME Diamonds and love that it’s 6”,. The plan was to just sell the kit and keep the KME Diamond stones. For the last 6-7 knives I sharpened, I haven’t even touched my KME diamonds and will probably sell the kit and the stones now.

What stones do you usually finish with on the KME?

If you have the money for it, I would get new Venev Diamond bonded stones. Your choices depending on preference and budget would be:

Ursas (double sided, 0.5 wide)
Centaurs (double sided, 1 wide)
Orion’s (1 sided with plate backing, 3mm thick)

Also know that the grit rating for the Venev and the KME Diamonds are different.

 

[ralph029]

Just last week I upgraded from a KME to a Hapstone R2 and the R2 is awesome.

For the KME, I have the 50-1500 grit, the Arkansas translucent, and Shapton glass stones in 1k, 4k, 8k and kangaroo strops with 4 and 1.5 micron.

Per the recommendation of 777 Edge , I got the Venev Ursa Diamond stones (6” long but 0.5” thick). I didn’t realize the stones were so skinny and contemplated returning it, but decided to keep it and glad I did.

The Ursa stones have been amazing thus far. Definitely a different feel that the KME Diamonds and love that it’s 6”,. The plan was to just sell the kit and keep the KME Diamond stones. For the last 6-7 knives I sharpened, I haven’t even touched my KME diamonds and will probably sell the kit and the stones now.

What stones do you usually finish with on the KME?

If you have the money for it, I would get new Venev Diamond bonded stones. Your choices depending on preference and budget would be:

Ursas (double sided, 0.5 wide)
Centaurs (double sided, 1 wide)
Orion’s (1 sided with plate backing, 3mm thick)

Also know that the grit rating for the Venev and the KME Diamonds are different.

Thanks for the response. I appreciate the time. I know that there is a chart on gritomatic that aligns the stones they sell with each other so you can compare "apples to apples" so to speak, so I'll be sure to reference that before I make any purchase. As for which stones do I finish with, I always go to the KME 1500 at least. On my EDC's, I'll go to my Arkansas Translucent.

 

[Revival29]

Check these 2 threads out. Tons of info regarding the sharpeners you are interested in and stone info.

TSPROF Kadet vs Hapstone R2

In my search for a guided sharpener I started off with the KME. Wanting the ability to also do larger kitchen knives I migrated over to some version of the Hapstone R2 system. I doing research on the Hapstone I ran across several videos on the Kadet. I realize that they’re both basically the...

www.bladeforums.com

Venev Ursa Set vs Centaur Set

Just received my Hapstone R2 + accessories today. I also purchased the Venev Ursa set and didn’t realize that the width of the stone was only 0.6” wide even though it clearly has it listed. My fault. I was thinking about returning it and purchasing the Venev Centaur set. Coming from Edge Pro...

www.bladeforums.com

 

[777 Edge]

Solid info from Revival29 for you.

Have a read through those threads and you'll get some more good info. I have both Hapstone R2 and TSPROF Kadet, and the R2 is by far my favorite of those 2 systems. The R2 aligns closer with the TSPROF K03 in usability and versatility, but for half the price of the K03. (I also have a K03 and a Blitz unit) Of all of those, I would recommend the R2 for its value for money combined with its versatility.

Initially, keep all your KME stones, they mount and work well on the R2. You're comfortable with the KME stones, so use them as a start and if you want to upgrade, then have a serious look at the dual sided Venev stones mentioned above by Revival29 . Those stones are epic value for money.

You'll have to buy the Hapstone R2/R1 scissors adapter as an extra accessory, but it's very well priced on Gritomatic. Well worth having it.

Alternatively, if you are more of a DIY guy and likes a project, go ahead and have my Leading Edge sharpening system 3D printed (if you have access to a 3D printer), and build it for yourself. I've made it all available for free for anyone serious about sharpening. It blows most systems out of the water, and will cost you a fraction of any other system.

Knife, Scissors, Chisel & Razor Sharpener - Leading Edge System by leadingedge

This is my "Leading Edge" Sharpening System.NOTE - The LATEST (Major upgraded) version of my system will soon be available as a ready-to-assemble kit from https://www.gritomatic.com. I will not be updating this version on Thingiverse any more, but I will leave it here for free printing.NOTE -...

www.thingiverse.com

You mentioned you want to sharpen EDC knives, scissors, chisel and larger blades. My system will sharpen them all, just print and assemble the accessories you want. It also works with any 6" and shorter stones.

CelloDan has a very good thread about it here:

"Leading Edge" 3D printed knife guided sharpening system. Assembly/Build/Use

Hi everyone :) I've just finished building my "Leading Edge" 3D printed knife guided sharpening system designed by our friend @777 Edge :thumbsup:. The files for printing can be downloaded for free from Thingiverse at: https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4135236 Loving it ! :cool...

www.bladeforums.com

 

[ralph029]

Check these 2 threads out. Tons of info regarding the sharpeners you are interested in and stone info.

TSPROF Kadet vs Hapstone R2

In my search for a guided sharpener I started off with the KME. Wanting the ability to also do larger kitchen knives I migrated over to some version of the Hapstone R2 system. I doing research on the Hapstone I ran across several videos on the Kadet. I realize that they’re both basically the...

www.bladeforums.com

Venev Ursa Set vs Centaur Set

Just received my Hapstone R2 + accessories today. I also purchased the Venev Ursa set and didn’t realize that the width of the stone was only 0.6” wide even though it clearly has it listed. My fault. I was thinking about returning it and purchasing the Venev Centaur set. Coming from Edge Pro...

www.bladeforums.com

Thanks for the info. I appreciate the insight into the thoughts on the Venev stones. Since I have only ever worked with KME system, the thoughts about the .6 width never crossed my mind.

 

[ralph029]

Solid info from Revival29 for you.

Have a read through those threads and you'll get some more good info. I have both Hapstone R2 and TSPROF Kadet, and the R2 is by far my favorite of those 2 systems. The R2 aligns closer with the TSPROF K03 in usability and versatility, but for half the price of the K03. (I also have a K03 and a Blitz unit) Of all of those, I would recommend the R2 for its value for money combined with its versatility.

Initially, keep all your KME stones, they mount and work well on the R2. You're comfortable with the KME stones, so use them as a start and if you want to upgrade, then have a serious look at the dual sided Venev stones mentioned above by Revival29 . Those stones are epic value for money.

You'll have to buy the Hapstone R2/R1 scissors adapter as an extra accessory, but it's very well priced on Gritomatic. Well worth having it.

Alternatively, if you are more of a DIY guy and likes a project, go ahead and have my Leading Edge sharpening system 3D printed (if you have access to a 3D printer), and build it for yourself. I've made it all available for free for anyone serious about sharpening. It blows most systems out of the water, and will cost you a fraction of any other system.

Knife, Scissors, Chisel & Razor Sharpener - Leading Edge System by leadingedge

This is my "Leading Edge" Sharpening System.NOTE - The LATEST (Major upgraded) version of my system will soon be available as a ready-to-assemble kit from https://www.gritomatic.com. I will not be updating this version on Thingiverse any more, but I will leave it here for free printing.NOTE -...

www.thingiverse.com

You mentioned you want to sharpen EDC knives, scissors, chisel and larger blades. My system will sharpen them all, just print and assemble the accessories you want. It also works with any 6" and shorter stones.

CelloDan has a very good thread about it here:

"Leading Edge" 3D printed knife guided sharpening system. Assembly/Build/Use

Hi everyone :) I've just finished building my "Leading Edge" 3D printed knife guided sharpening system designed by our friend @777 Edge :thumbsup:. The files for printing can be downloaded for free from Thingiverse at: https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4135236 Loving it ! :cool...

www.bladeforums.com

Thank you so much for the thoughts. I know about the scissors adaptor. I agree it is priced very fairly at grindomatic. Between sewing, cooking, fly fishing, and crafts there are soooooo many scissors in this house
I do not have easy access to a 3D printer but I might be able to find something within my IT dept at work. Thanks for the link.
I was planning on keeping the KME system and stones to use as a travel kit so the stones will be around for me to use to get acquainted with the new system.

 

[cudgee]

Between sewing, cooking, fly fishing, and crafts there are soooooo many scissors in this house

Sounds like a very creative and happy home.

 

[ralph029]

If I may... When I posed this question originally my thinking was more along the lines of natural or semi synthetic stones being an upgrade. (I know about the mess created in the inverted systems). Now I'm thinking that the only upgrade to diamond stones are either better stones or CBN stones, correct? Granted I'm talking solely about a guided system here.

 

[777 Edge]

If I may... When I posed this question originally my thinking was more along the lines of natural or semi synthetic stones being an upgrade. (I know about the mess created in the inverted systems). Now I'm thinking that the only upgrade to diamond stones are either better stones or CBN stones, correct? Granted I'm talking solely about a guided system here.

Synthetic / manufactured stones is definitely the way to go in this day and age. Much more predictable and consistent grit.

As far as diamond vs CBN, it really doesn't matter that much with a guided system or bench stone. CBN outperforms at high temperature loads where diamond is not as good. You won't get anywhere near the temperature / loading where CBN outperforms diamonds.

What's more important when it comes to CBN and diamond stones, is the amount of particles used and the type of bond / resin used. Venev stones have a good mix of the right bond, and at their "100%" loading, you also get a good amount of diamond particles per surface area. CGSW diamond matrix stones are also very good, but not as good a value for money as the Venev dual sided stones are.

As far as bonded / resin diamond stones vs plated diamond stones go, you tend to get a better edge quality and end result with the bonded / resin stones. Only the very tops of the diamonds / CBN crystals protrude from the bond, so they are less harsh on your edge.

 

[ralph029]

Synthetic / manufactured stones is definitely the way to go in this day and age. Much more predictable and consistent grit.

As far as diamond vs CBN, it really doesn't matter that much with a guided system or bench stone. CBN outperforms at high temperature loads where diamond is not as good. You won't get anywhere near the temperature / loading where CBN outperforms diamonds.

What's more important when it comes to CBN and diamond stones, is the amount of particles used and the type of bond / resin used. Venev stones have a good mix of the right bond, and at their "100%" loading, you also get a good amount of diamond particles per surface area. CGSW diamond matrix stones are also very good, but not as good a value for money as the Venev dual sided stones are.

As far as bonded / resin diamond stones vs plated diamond stones go, you tend to get a better edge quality and end result with the bonded / resin stones. Only the very tops of the diamonds / CBN crystals protrude from the bond, so they are less harsh on your edge.

Thank you. I don't know, I get going pretty fast and it might just warrant upgrading to CBN, hehehe. Seriously though, thanks. This is a perspective that I needed. When you pull knowledge from 87 different places, it's had to wrangle it into one coherent thought.

 

[777 Edge]

Thank you. I don't know, I get going pretty fast and it might just warrant upgrading to CBN, hehehe. Seriously though, thanks. This is a perspective that I needed. When you pull knowledge from 87 different places, it's had to wrangle it into one coherent thought.

My pleasure, happy to help a fellow knife and sharpening enthusiast.

 

[ralph029]

I'm pretty solid on my choices at this point, but I have one follow up question, if you all will humor me.
I want to add 1 or two strops to this new set up. After reading the Grand Logarithmic Grit Chart at grintomatic I'm thinking that with the Ursa set, the next step is 1 micron. I'm probably reading that chart all wrong. FEPA-F for the Ursa F2000 (the finest hone in the set) then next down would be 1 based on <> Compound (like my make shift diamond symbol?). Oh yeah, to make it clear, I am looking at the Venev Diamond Stropping Paste. I am planning on picking up 1 or 2 cowhide strops. I have kangaroo with my KME set but I never really notice a difference between my good kitchen knives and my Hart straight razor that gets stropped with cowhide. Am I reading the chart correctly? With the Ursa set is a strop even worth it? I do strop all my kitchen knifes regularly for edge maintenance.

 

[ralph029]

Oh and BTW... Thanks 777 Edge for the tip on the King Nagura!

 

[Revival29]

For the Venev set the highest stone is 1200F which is 3 micron. The set is:

80F
120F
240F
400F
800F
1200F

I been finishing off with 1 micron Diamond paste on balsawood or kangaroo after the 1200F and been loving the results.

 

[777 Edge]

You should go a little higher on the grit for easier progression to the strops if you're looking for a mirror polish. From a 1 micron stone, you should probably go back to a 3-5 micron strop with the Venev paste, then move up through the paste progression. With diamond paste, I've found a nice progressing being about 1/3 of the previous grit size as you go finer.

For a mirror polish, I use about a 3x factor to go from stone to strop, and about a 1/3 factor to progress through the strops. So as an example, if I finish on a 3 micron diamond stone, my next step is about a 9 micron diamond strop, then 3; 1; 0.5 or less.

The reason why you can go from a 1 micron stone to (for example) a 3-5 micron strop, is because the paste on a leather strop is a lot less abrasive and easier on your edge than a stone is.

Now, if you're not after a mirror polish but just a nice refined edge, you can go from a 3 micron diamond stone (or even a 5 or 10 micron) straight to a 1 or 0.5 micro strop for a very nice edge. It won't be as polished, but it will be a nice slicer.

Get yourself at least 3-4 cowhide Gritomatic strops, they are excellent quality. You'll want to dedicate 1 paste to its own strop. Once the paste is on, keep that strop on the same paste forevermore.

Just a word of caution - don't over-do the stropping and don't strop with any pressure or you could round your edge and possibly make it worse.

 

[777 Edge]

Oh and BTW... Thanks 777 Edge for the tip on the King Nagura!

My pleasure. It works well as a conditioning and cleaning stone, doesn't it?

 

[ralph029]

For the Venev set the highest stone is 1200F which is 3 micron. The set is:

80F
120F
240F
400F
800F
1200F

I been finishing off with 1 micron Diamond paste on balsawood or kangaroo after the 1200F and been loving the results.

I'm confused. The picture at gritomatic clearly shows F2000 as the other side of F1200. The desc even says FEPA-F. Is that wrong?

 

[ralph029]

You should go a little higher on the grit for easier progression to the strops if you're looking for a mirror polish. From a 1 micron stone, you should probably go back to a 3-5 micron strop with the Venev paste, then move up through the paste progression. With diamond paste, I've found a nice progressing being about 1/3 of the previous grit size as you go finer.

For a mirror polish, I use about a 3x factor to go from stone to strop, and about a 1/3 factor to progress through the strops. So as an example, if I finish on a 3 micron diamond stone, my next step is about a 9 micron diamond strop, then 3; 1; 0.5 or less.

The reason why you can go from a 1 micron stone to (for example) a 3-5 micron strop, is because the paste on a leather strop is a lot less abrasive and easier on your edge than a stone is.

Now, if you're not after a mirror polish but just a nice refined edge, you can go from a 3 micron diamond stone (or even a 5 or 10 micron) straight to a 1 or 0.5 micro strop for a very nice edge. It won't be as polished, but it will be a nice slicer.

Get yourself at least 3-4 cowhide Gritomatic strops, they are excellent quality. You'll want to dedicate 1 paste to its own strop. Once the paste is on, keep that strop on the same paste forevermore.

Just a word of caution - don't over-do the stropping and don't strop with any pressure or you could round your edge and possibly make it worse.

Now I'm a little confused on the starting point (not the 3X - 1/3 math). Again, if I'm ready that chart correctly, I should be starting out at a 3 micron paste followed by a 1 and then a 0.5, correct? The final grit listed on the Ursa set by the picture at gritomatic shows F2000 which should correlate to a 1 micron?

 

[Revival29]

I'm confused. The picture at gritomatic clearly shows F2000 as the other side of F1200. The desc even says FEPA-F. Is that wrong?

The photo of the stones appear to be outdated. If you scroll down on the page of the Ursa stones, you should see the listing of the stones.

80/120
240/400
800/1200