US Army looks to be giving up on bayonets!

PeterPHWS

PeterPHWS

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Dec 31, 2005
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Just read this .....

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article7066220.ece

What do you all make of it?

My tuppence worth is that on the smaller M4's or our SA80's the bayonet is'nt as effective as it was on the longer older weapons .... plus chest webbing for mag's or plated vests means your better off with something that can "chop" instead of just "stab" .... however no mention is made about replacing the bayonet with a better "battle knife" and no knife at all seems a "bad mistake" ....
 
I'm with Ripley: "I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit." ;)
 
We still have to remember the psychologic impact of bayonet. A soldier approaching with Bayonet is somewhat morally crushing sight. Modern day soldier's are trained to shoot and such, the idea of being bayonetted is more scary than being shot at or blown by mine.

In Falkland's there was intense close quarter battles where britt's had to use extensively bayonets when storming argentinian positions. I bet this decision was made pencil pushing beaurocrat in Pentagon who decided to save few bucks after go nicked by his letter opener.

Sure, in modern combat there is no much need for bayonet... in most of the action but each engagement is different and there will be situations where bayonets might be useful.

Soldier still needs knife, why not keep relatively good knife bayonet? It won't add much weight in soldiers gears and can be life saviour sometimes. I feel any modern trooper without knife of any kind might aswell be given M-16 without magazines and ammo's should be carried in pocket so tactical vests could be done cheaper and army could save millions by not making anymore magazines. \Sarcasm. accountants and beaurocrats are bad but when accounting beaurocrat commitee gets to decide what soldier's should wear, men sent to combat would be armed with loin cloth and spiked club if they could have their ways.

Keeping pencil pushing beaurocrats and accountants away from service men is greatest patriotic act world can do these days.
 
there is more to it than what meets the eye. From what I'm hearing from soldiers in Iraq, It's not so much that the bayonet is a useless tool, "they are tools for a variety of task" but that having a knife is Offensive to the iraqis. many troops are only given limited rounds off ammo and knives being carried is discouraged. I'm at a loss. At least the USMC isn't going along with BS. This is what happens when war become politically correct, and our soldiers and Marines are told to be policemen and read Miranda rights instead of fighting a war. "just ask the navy seals who are jail" Just my jist on all this. When a good friend came back at Christmas from Iraq, and I got a chance to sit down and chat with him for a while over dinner, we talked about troops being told not to carry knives and officers being limited to one magazine of ammo for their pistols. I could not believe what I was hearing.. much more on top of this that I won't go into here. But yes, it is happening, and it has much more to do with being politically correct than it does with the bayonet not being useful. The OKC-3S the USMC is issuing is one of the best fighting knives ever issued to our Corps, and the Army's M9 is not bad either. BAD DECISION by the Brass.
 
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fbusmc said:
but that having is knife is Offensive to the iraqis
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I'm at a loss as to WHY this would be offensive? Iraqis have kitchens, don't they? Can you explain this?
Also, why aren't US forces just issued one knife, a bayonet?
From what I understand most bayonets have lousy steel, and aren't sharpened. Wouldn't a single real knife with a bayonet fitting make more sense, in terms of cost, weight, and practicality?
 
The "political correctness" has GOT to go!!!:thumbdn::thumbdn:

Semper Fi fbusmc!;):thumbup::thumbup:
 
My oldest son just signed up for Army Reserves, He leaves for Ft. Knox (where I went for basic:thumbup:) in September, then to Bragg and then to Benning. I am very disappointed to hear about the bayonet, but I will somehow manage to get him some INFI when he's done with training.

My first memory of Basic was marching across training fields with platoons training with bayonets. It was mystic, beautiful and very, very creepy. As I trained, I understood that it was yet another tactical skill. Physically and psychologically and accompanied hand to hand perfectly. I wish they'd keep it.
 
gormandu said:
I'm at a loss as to WHY this would be offensive? Iraqis have kitchens, don't they? Can you explain this?
Also, why aren't US forces just issued one knife, a bayonet?
From what I understand most bayonets have lousy steel, and aren't sharpened. Wouldn't a single real knife with a bayonet fitting make more sense, in terms of cost, weight, and practicality?
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Cost. A properly heat treated blade of good steel will be far more expensive to make than a bayonet.

The PC mindset is that knives are offensive in nature and appearance to most. It falls into the 'hearts and minds' stuff the military does. It's also scaling of threat. The look of 100 Marines fully tooled up, swathed in belts of ammo and 1 in 4 packing a MMG is far more intimidating than the same men with soft covers on, M4's and only maybe 1 MMG per 8. It's all part of a strategy, it's up to you if you think the strategy right or wrong.

In my own experience I had a couple of knives, KaBar and F/S Commando Dagger, visible on my webbing in Iraq and Afghan. Both times we were 'war' fighting and I was not told even once about putting them away. In fact due to the aggressive nature of my appearance I was used multiple times to escort officers and aid in questioning of locals.

The broader scale of the article worries me more. Binning 5 mile speed marches and bayonet drills to me is lunacy. The drills practice aggression and are physically exhausting, the 5 mile runs are good for conditioning not just fitness but joint strength and stamina. British troops are patrolling far longer distances than 5 miles so this short sprint, zig zag stuff is only really good for MOUT/OBUA. My fear is the revamp of training sees soldiers trained for very specific scenarios or theaters and this can lead to casualties if the enemy changes his tactics or locations to fight in. To use a knife comparison a soldier should be like a KaBar, not a scalpel not an axe. Somewhere in between that can do most jobs well while failing at none. SF or specialist units do the other stuff.

In the UK I know for a fact that there is a dedicated program running to prevent the loss of traditional training in a 'green' role. The focus on Afghan and Iraq can blinker training establishments, but having learned from previous wars it's a lot easier to lose skills and knowledge than it is to relearn them.

As regards the types of combat being taught to our military today, I don't really won't to go into it apart from to say MMA has a lot to answer for as regards what people think will work on a battlefield in full kit.
 
They are going to focus on H2H more which includes a blade.
The Iraqi's I was in contact with were NEVER "offended" by any blades. They are intimidated or curious about them but not offended. That's just my .02 but what the heck. I was only in contact with about 200 of them everyday for way over a year so I may not know what I'm talking about.

Bob
 
Well at least the Marines will still be available for bayonet charges. They love that stuff. Oddly enough, the Air Force now teaches rifle fighting techniques (using the M16 as a club). They don't give them bayonets, though. :confused:
 
I bet the Iraqi's being offended by knives was a brainchild of beaurocrat that has never left the states. I hope army then issues Striders or ZT's for every service man deployed over seas. Then you can carry blade that is not visible and there for it cannot be offended by anyone... Wishful thinking though.
 
Well it is a strange world if soldiers have to pull out a folder to engage in H2H fighting ....

Thank God we have the Gurkha's .... I would'nt like to be the person selling that line of PC bull$hit to them .... and if they can have a khukri .... so can the rest of us ....
(hopefully!)

Binning the bayonets and issuing khukri's would be a step in the right direction .... or at least something substantial ....
 
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Last time I new it most of the Musslim world respected a blade(big blades). When did it become a offensive gesture? Screw-em, leave the politics out of the military.
 
fbusmc said:
having is knife is Offensive to the iraqis
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This is puzzling to me as well:confused::confused: I am not saying I don't believe it, I am just surprised.

A while back I was talking with Joe Keeslar a custom knife maker who made a huge Bowie (12"+ blade!!) for a friend who was deployed. He said that the amount of respect that came along with that blade worn on his belt was unreal. The folks in the Middle East region are/were by large a blade using culture (think Damascus steel). I think any offensive over knives is simply jealousy, because in this day & age OURS ARE BETTER!!

The bottom line is, give the boys what they need to get the job done!!
 
Well I did a bit of reading around on this as our Times article is not the full picture and it transpires that firstly ... the US Army do not issue bayonets .... so withdrawing the skill in basic training is relatively logical if that's the case .... secondly this new training programme is meant to be developed by combat veteran drill instructors who are teaching alternative hand to hand skills which do include knife techniques .... what puzzles me though is what knife is issued or are soldiers required to buy their own? Also ... what type of knife size wise is allowed? It seems that each CO for a unit has discretion in giving permission for knives of a certain length to be carried. Usually from what I have learned the length is no longer than 6 inches .... but that is better than no knife at all ....

I did'nt know tho' that the Army did'nt issue bayonets any longer .... our troops still have them and they were last used as recently as 2004 in a bayonet charge by the Argyll's in Iraq .... quite successfully from what I have read as well .... as in no dead on our side and 20 militia killed ....

From the looks of it we should have been having this thread when they decided to stop issuing bayonets .... there is little point training for something you have'nt got .... and if I were a US soldier I would rather train in H2H with a knife I had .... as would any sensible thinking person ....

So what is issued knife wise for the Army? I assume the marines still are issued a bayonet ....
 
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Think the US guys get a KaBar mate. Not a bad general purpose knife and given the type of guy using it and for the tasks he will use it for it beats the Commando dagger hands down.
 
Well from the back of my memory I have a recollection that there is a new knife by Gerber ? Anyway .... nothing wrong with a Kabar ....
 
Military issue is what is required gear for each soldier to have at all times. What is available in the military stock system for unit CO's to acquire and then make standard gear for the unit is different. So the "military issue" term is not an exacting term for this discussion. Bayonets are available to the military through the supply chain.

As some of my recent readings, what was going on for many years, boot camp no longer taught 100% of soldiering as in war times of past, more like 60%, and left the final 40% up to the unit assignments to follow up on. They have shifted focus to making 100% soldiers available out of boot again, with all the skills minus the experience needed too keep our guys alive and in one piece.

So bayonet or not, i think the focus is back where it needs to be, combat skills for combatants.

JMHO
 
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