"USED" and "PRICE"

[Judge_Blackhawk]

Perhaps I just don't get this knife thing. But I have inquired recently about two used knives from two different members. Both were mad at me for not purchasing their knife, since I made the inquiry off their post on selling their knife.

What is the definition of "USED"? Is it ownership by the final consumer? With merchandise on a very simple scale you have the "manufacturer to the wholesaler to the retailer to the final consumer". Once a product has been purchased by a final consumer it is not considered "brand new". Is a product still new after one month of final consumer ownership? How about three years of final consumer ownership? Even if the product has never been opened or taken out of the box, is the product still "BRAND-NEW" or not? Or looking at it another way "When does a product become used"? What makes it used? Does being purchased and owned by the final consumer make it "used"?

I find this most disturbing. I also find it most disturbing for people to try to imply that not wanting to pay a price that in my mind was too high as rude.

Let me give you an example. I go to a Widget Store, and there is a really nice Widget 2000. This model was designed and made in 2000. They have it marked for 99.99 dollars on the discount shelf. They also have the Widget 2003, which is hot off the press the newest thing in Widgets. It is selling for 299.99. I purchase one of each. Then after a few months, I find that I have really only used the Widget 2000. That I have never even taken the Widget 2003 out of the box. It has stayed safe and sound in my bedroom closet. I put an add in the paper and say "Widget 2003 never used, asking 275".

Now ask yourself why anyone would pay 280 for my Widget 2003, when they could have a brand-new never owned Widget 2003 for 20 dollars more (of course there is the sales tax issue but I digress).

If I can find a new Widget model or a similar product for not much more than the used (individually owned) one, then I will buy the new, never owned, model.

Now lets say you can find a used Widget 2001 for 100, a used Widget 2002 for 180 and a used Widget 2003 for 240. If there was a person trying to sell you a previously owned Widget 2003 for 275, would you buy it, when there were so many Widgets of equal utility?

Am I missing something on the knife issue? I don't know too many production knives that are being made today, that are holding or going up in value. Perhaps some limited runs or special editions that are produced on a truly limited basis might have a better value holding ability. But the average production knife, from lets say Gerber, SOG, Case,Buck, Emerson, MOD, or Microtech is made by the thousand or tens of thousands. They are sold by discount houses all over the U.S.A. and the internet. They are sold on auctions and sale sheets from different knife dealers.

So why is wanting to be frugal and not wanting to buy a "used" product for a "close to" new price a bad thing?

I don't mind people wanting to get some of their money out of a product they purchased, but I find it really hard to believe that there are people who will pay good money for a used product that is priced high. Maybe these people have much more money that I do.

But finally, I do see a lot of sellers that keep listing their knives over and over again. Each time lowering their price until they finally sell it or decide to not list it again and move on. A good lesson from Sam Walton is in order -- price your merhcandise competively and don't depend on a "Sale" to sell your merchandise.

If anyone can explain this knife business to me, I would appreciate it.

Thanks,

Paul G.

 

[Architect]

In regard to selling and buying on Bladeforums - here are some suggestions, YMMV.

If you don't like someone's stated price -

1. Don't bother them, go away.
2. Or, maybe, make an offer - but be prepared to be ignored.

I also find it most disturbing for people to try to imply that not wanting to pay a price that in my mind was too high as rude.

3. It sounds like you might have tried to "educate" to them as to why they should accept your offer, your logic. Not everyone likes this kind of "friendly" advice - in fact, some see it as you trying to ram a stick up their ass.

Folks here are basically hobbyists, not dealers, not merchandisers. They are not Sam Walton. Most will rarely make their money back, most will suffer a relatively significant loss (in percentage). "Sales" are part of the fun and drama of buying here - don't knock it.

Once a product has been purchased by a final consumer it is not considered "brand new".

If you go into a brick and mortar knife store, where many folks have "fondled" the goods - the proprietor is going to sell you the knife as "brand new". Yet you opine that a BF member selling an untouched, sterile knife never removed from the box as "brand new" is somehow offensive to your "merchandising" philosphy. Wake up.

 

[Hawaiian]

Hi Paul. I believe you are misunderstanding used vs. new.

NIB is “new in box”. This is a knife that is still in the box just like it came from the maker.

LNIB is “like new in box”. This is a knife that was handled, played with, but it’s condition is just like NIB.

You also see adds that state, “carried, never used”. The seller usually states if there is or is not any scratches or other carry marks.

Example of a proper description of a knife for sale that is new. “LNIB Microtech UT6. Opened, fired a few times to check function and put in the safe. No opening marks, mint condition.” This knife is not considered used. Knife collectors even differentiate between used and carried only. Carried only means they never cut anything with the blade.

Ownership has nothing to do with weather it is “new” or “used”.

Would I buy a $200.00 NIB knife from a forum member to save five bucks, probably not. Twenty bucks, yep, from a trusted member. From someone I didn’t know. ? Maybe not as I know the dealers I buy from will take care of any problems.

Hopes this helps.

 

[not2sharp]

Let me give you an example. I go to a Widget Store, and there is a really nice Widget 2000. This model was designed and made in 2000. They have it marked for 99.99 dollars on the discount shelf. They also have the Widget 2003, which is hot off the press the newest thing in Widgets. It is selling for 299.99. I purchase one of each.

Paul,

The widget store buys wholesale, depreciates its inventory, and needs to sell in order to reduce its inventory carrying costs. The members here buy at retail, and their only carrying cost is the amount of space the thing takes up in a sock drawer. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting on an end of year sale. When something is discontinued you can expect the prices for desirable minty examples to go up.

n2s

 

[Gollnick]

Legally, once the final consumer removes the item from the package, it is used and can not be resold as new.

If I bought a knife from a local store, took it home, but never opened the box and decided to return it, the store could restock it and sell it again as new. But, if I even took it out of the box and just handled it a bit, it would now be used.

Years ago, I worked for a company that made computers for warehouse and factory automation. The programs for these computers were stored in a chip called an EPROM. The E in EPROM is for erasable. They could be erased and reprogrammed by removing them from the computer and putting them into a special machine. They could be erased and reprogrammed thousands of times. But we never did. When the customer needed a software upgrade, we removed their EPROM, threw it away, and programmed a brand new chip for them. You see, we guaranteed to use only new parts in our service work and, legally, once the computer with its EPROM was sold to the customer, it was not new anymore.

I made hundreds of dollars a month collecting up those "used" chips, erasing them, and selling them on the sly to a company that repackaged them and resold them. I don't know to whom or if they were sold as used or new. I just got my money.

 

[Jeff Clark]

There is a form of dementia suffered by collectors of almost anything. They consider what they paid for an item as having some relevance to what they should get for an item when they sell it. The real measure of resale value is what the competition is charging. I would generally look at the closing prices for items on ebay as your first line estimate of a current TOP price. On ebay you have virtually the whole world as potential competitive bidders. This makes ebay prices theoretically a measure of the highest price for a fully open market. If you go to some backwater market you can find higher or lower prices. I only go to where I can get a lower price.

It is particularly irrelevant if a seller paid full retail price for an item if it is also available from discount dealers. I might prefer to deal with a trusted private party, but since they don't have the overhead of a storefront I would certainly not pay more than from a retailer.

In the past I have had a booth at a permanent indoor flea market. At the flea market I would sell things that I bought at garage sales. It was quite common to find NIB household items people had received as wedding presents at garage sales. I typically bought them for 1/10 of the list price and resold them for 1/3 of new price. This sets my level of expectation. I look to buy previously owned virtually new merchandise for no more than 1/3 of the new price. To go above 1/3 of the new price it has to be out of production and have an extreme collectors value. It is common to find surplus new merchandise for 1/3 to 2/3 of original asking price. On the net 2/3 of retail is a pretty common discount price. I need to be awfully hot on something to pay 2/3 of msrp, I usually look for those 50% deals.

 

[DaveH]

I'll just say that I sometimes see people post what I consider to be overly high prices for used stuff. SOmtimes it sits sometimes it sells.

If someone posts "carried but never used" that's BS, it's either NIB or it's used.

 

[TODD1]

Pual,
it just like new and used cars!!Go buy a new car and drive it around the block a few times.Then go trade it back in and see how much you get for it. When selling knives here except to get about 65% of the lowest retail you can find online for NIB.And for like new or used just think of it as "well...how much would I really pay for it." and just use common sense.I try to always list my stuff for trade in percents if not new,98-99% means maybe a few hair line scratches,under 90% carried or carried/used with some light sharpening etc. I also under rate them to keep someone from having hard feelings.This place is all about word of mouth and character.So re-read the why you are wording your post.The two members you shafted
have a good reason to be pissed.Your post should have started like "Forgive me for not knowing that a used knife is just that,a used knife"

Todd

 

[GigOne]

Posted by Judge_Blackhawk:

If anyone can explain this knife business to me, I would appreciate it.

Where the hell is Les Robertson at when ya need him. LOL

Man. . .if anyone knows the "knife business". . .it's Les !


Actually, the information posted above is some very good information and advice !

OK. . .maybe not the stuff about collecting "used" chips, erasing them, and selling them on the sly to a company that repackaged them and resold them. . .. We don't need the Judge goin' to jail.

 

[glockman99]

Originally posted by DaveH
...If someone posts "carried but never used" that's BS, it's either NIB or it's used.

I dunno...I bought a Spyderco Police model totally NIB. I carry it, but I have NEVER cut ANYTHING with it (it's reserved as my "defensive/offensive" folder), so it has never been USED for what it is designed for; cutting. So, it's neither NIB, nor is it "used".

 

[notdos]

Some customs claim a much higher price on the secondary market,, productions generally less. It's really all about a willing buyer and a willing seller. Desire for the new thing or the next thing can be a strong motivator to pay just a little more.


Phillip

 

[VampyreWolf]

It's all about supply and demand. For example, I just got a new multi-tool this month, for $50 less than retail(150 B&M, 100 [shipped] deal). Could I have found the same thing cheaper? Probably, if I used ebay. Would I know that what I got was the condition I received? Nope.

Another example, I will be sending my Calypso jr frn/vg-10 PE in for warranty repair soon, vertical movement that I don't like. If they can fix it(according to email's they should be able to) I have 3 choices... 1> carry it again 2> put it away, knowing it's a refurb and not going to gain in value 3> try to trade it on the forum as a "factory repaired" condition knife... Most likely I'll ask around if anyone wants to trade, knowing full well the condition, and end up carrying it anyways. The PE is in high demand, and thus it has value. The condition of it(refurb) lowers that value, but there are ppl looking for a carry piece so they can leave the mint condition one in the safe.

 

[AntDog]

Even if the product has never been opened or taken out of the box, is the product still "BRAND-NEW" or not?

YES! Just because someone has *gasp* owned something does not make it used! If it has not been used or carried, it's new to me. I also don't think there is only NIB or USED. Some of the newest looking knives I have ever bought came from members of this forum - some of them represented as used, or carried but not used! (and with the prices I got them for, I really couldn't have asked for a better deal)

Just as a side note - I have bought a few guns at gun shows that had been handled but never fired. Some of the best deals I've ever got! I got a nice Sig for $350 that way!

My advice is that you don't argue with people about whether their knife is new or not - that's a good way to piss them off real quick and lose the opportunity to buy the knife. If you are interested in a knife, take the seller's representation of the knife into account and buy it with some sort of inspection period agreement. That way, if it is not to your liking, you can send it back and all you have lost is shipping. If a price seems too high, go on to the next one, or make an offer.

 

[Sundsvall]

A knife is new if it was never used to cut, slash, stab anything. It was never utilized.

As for what the knife is worth, it has nothing to do with what the guy paid for it. It has everything to do with what you are willing to pay for it.

We live in a market based society, ultimately, the product is worth what the buying public is willing to pay. Supply and demand will be the determining forces.

You can counter offer, but if refused, you can hardly be offended.

Take Tom Mayo's TnT for example. Everyone paid between $450 and $900 for theirs. Now they are regularly sold for $900 - $1600 here and on Ebay. If we applied your logic, Mayo's TnTs would be selling between $250 and $600, and that clearly is not the reality.

Your logic depreciates all products across all industries, all the time. That cannot be true for all widgets.

Pushing the fallacious argument is just annoying to the seller.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

One more word of caution!

If you disagree with a price or a description, take it to e-mail. Posting a remark in the sales thread is stepping on his ad, and will probably mean no one will now buy that knife. If you kill his sale, or lower the price someone else might have paid for it, how do you think he will react?

A knife is worth what someone will pay for it. Old, new, used, whatever.

 

[curious2003]

I think what Blackhawk is trying to get at is that when dealing with any other product if someone purchases it and keeps it, it is not considered "new"

However in terms of collectibles words are usually used to describe CONDITION such as Mint, Very Good, Good, Fair, Poor, etc etc

When ppl say NIB they don't mean "new" as in never before purchased by a consumer but "Mint/Perfect condition", LNIB is "Very Good condition" etc

It's just a matter of how one labels something...

Granted most things depreciate in value. Yet as ppl often state things are worth as much as how much another is willing to pay for it. This is where collectibles differ. And knives, to knife nuts, are different.

I think he is just seeing it from a outside perspective and some of you come across as a tad harsh in judgement. He is not "wrong" but just expressing his opinion on a subject

 

[Architect]

I think the bottom line is that the pricing and terminology found in secondary markets for any hobby or collection-oriented goods has no relationship to the pricing and terminology used in the manufacturing/retailing end of the business.

 

[Cougar Allen]

Moving to TGB&U....

Some very informative posts have been made in this thread. I'll just add: if you're listing a knife for sale or trade, don't just describe condition with a category such as LNIB. Describe it in detail, such as "I carried it for a couple of weeks but never used it to cut anything. There's a tiny scratch on the left side of the blade near the choil" and post a picture showing the tiny scratch if at all possible so the buyer can see what you mean by "tiny."

Don't worry about scaring off potential buyers; there are plenty of members here who consider that scratch as insignificant as you consider it. Worry about misleading a fanatic collector who does care about that scratch -- you could really get yourself in trouble if you don't mention it. If you're not a collector yourself, keep reminding yourself: collectors are lunatics ... collectors are lunatics ...

 

[Esav Benyamin]

We are not lunatics! I am not obsessed!! I AM A REASONABLE MAN!!!

I only go over each new purchase under a halogen lamp with my magnifiers out of respect for the diligence and expertise of the maker or manufacturer.

- ------ ---- ------ -

It's always fun reading the occasional thread wherein we "experts" attempt to foist our own terminology on the forums, only to fall back on what Cougar just said: describe the knife, describe what you've done with it. Then everyone knows what they're getting.

I prefer perfection -- I just can't afford to pay for it!

 

[Cougar Allen]

Couple more thoughts: if you think mint and new are synonyms, eliminate the word mint from your vocabulary until you can learn what it means. Don't ever use the word minty -- nobody knows what that word means, and so many of the people who use it are dishonest that just by using it you bring suspicion on yourself.

Esav, how powerful is your magnifier? If it's less than 10x, you can claim to be less lunatic than some collectors....