Using a Wicked Edge, TSProf K03, etc. for Professional sharpening service?

[sickpuppy1]

That's true. Pretty much anytime there is friction there is heat. I'm just saying with a sharpener like we're using, there is ample time in between strokes for the metal to cool. And when I tried using the thermal gun to get a view of how much heat. blue being cool and red being hot, even with a hard fast stroke it momentarily changed to a slightly lighter shade of blue and that was while the stone was still moving on the metal.
Even with a Wicked Edge being used by a highly coordinated individual on crack for an extended period of time,it might get warm to the touch, but no where near enough to mess with the temper.Hell, said individual would have more teeth falling out b4 that knife would get hot.

 

[000Robert]

That's true. Pretty much anytime there is friction there is heat. I'm just saying with a sharpener like we're using, there is ample time in between strokes for the metal to cool. And when I tried using the thermal gun to get a view of how much heat. blue being cool and red being hot, even with a hard fast stroke it momentarily changed to a slightly lighter shade of blue and that was while the stone was still moving on the metal.
Even with a Wicked Edge being used by a highly coordinated individual on crack for an extended period of time,it might get warm to the touch, but no where near enough to mess with the temper.Hell, said individual would have more teeth falling out b4 that knife would get hot.

I'm not talking about the knife getting hot, I'm talking about the very apex of the edge getting hot. And the thinner the steel is at your edge apex the less friction it will take to heat the steel up.

 

[HeavyHanded]

Respectfully: I think you are mistaken. Nearly every manufacturer of blades, from Buck to Spyderco, to Benchmade uses belt sanders to sharpen their blades. Kershaw uses wheels. Some others might use wheels too. As I understand it, the vast majority of kitchen cutlery is sharpened with belt sanders. Nearly every professional knife sharpener uses a belt sander.

I don't think they are ruining the temper of the edge frequently. Of course you could misuse the tool and drastically overheat the blade. I believe that any edge overheated enough to ruin the temper would be glowing visibly to do so. Even 200 degrees F, which will burn the crap out of your fingers, will not affect the temper of a blade.

Brian.

I've done many, many knives on belt grinder, enough of my own to compare longevity and if used properly there is no difference.

The belt does it in seconds, that is the biggest difference. I do finish all my edges on a stationary stone for the final step, most powered means require more quality control and for me there is no time savings. Resetting the bevel is the time intensive part of the job.

FWIW I consider even the Tormek to be too slow for competitive pricing, and the hollow grind isn't welcome on all tools. It is damn precise though.

 

[HeavyHanded]

Well, a stone running down an edge removing steel is going to create some heat. The question is, how much heat?

Stop and press the bit of an axe head against your palm when doing spirited chopping and you'll find it gets pretty darn hot without doing any harm to the temper. You have to get it up to anealling temps IIRC. If your abrasives are in good shape it isn't going to happen. I've also noticed that many belts run cooler at higher speed.

Is an endless discussion but moot for professional sharpening. You can do a few knives manually, but if you get any real volume you need a powered sharpener.

 

[000Robert]

Stop and press the bit of an axe head against your palm when doing spirited chopping and you'll find it gets pretty darn hot without doing any harm to the temper. You have to get it up to anealling temps IIRC. If your abrasives are in good shape it isn't going to happen. I've also noticed that many belts run cooler at higher speed.

Is an endless discussion but moot for professional sharpening. You can do a few knives manually, but if you get any real volume you need a powered sharpener.

I figured that the very edge could heat up and cool back down before a person could feel it. Yall keep talking about the thicker parts of a blade and I am talking about just the very little material at the edge. I really don't know why that is so hard to understand...

 

[sickpuppy1]

I understand what your saying, I have from the start.And maybe it is the source of all wear,that the apex gets hot during use or sharpening and becomes the weak link. But by the same token, its unavoidable as its a normal point of contact. LOL,and my tires would last longer if it weren't for that pesky concrete stuff. At some point we have to stop sweating the small stuff we cant affect and realize its just the way shit is.
Not to minimize your question or concern. But does a wheel or belt cause enough heat to affect the temper of the steel vs a stone type sharpener? It's possible, but if it does, it's such a small amount as to not be of consequence

 

[000Robert]

I understand what your saying, I have from the start.And maybe it is the source of all wear,that the apex gets hot during use or sharpening and becomes the weak link. But by the same token, its unavoidable as its a normal point of contact. LOL,and my tires would last longer if it weren't for that pesky concrete stuff. At some point we have to stop sweating the small stuff we cant affect and realize its just the way shit is.
Not to minimize your question or concern. But does a wheel or belt cause enough heat to affect the temper of the steel vs a stone type sharpener? It's possible, but if it does, it's such a small amount as to not be of consequence

It's just something I wondered about. I was hoping that someone actually investigated it and would chime in, but I guess nobody has.

 

[HeavyHanded]

It's just something I wondered about. I was hoping that someone actually investigated it and would chime in, but I guess nobody has.

You can do a search, this topic comes up often, with no conclusive evidence either way. The only thing you can do is sharpen a sample knife or tool both ways and compare longevity. I personally have seen no difference. If anything, a carefully belt sharpened edge seems to last longer, not shorter. At high speed the steel comes off with less elongation and there's less chance of pressure folding across the edge. You can argue it both ways, but testing is the final word, and it isn't conclusive in this case.

 

[HeavyHanded]

I figured that the very edge could heat up and cool back down before a person could feel it. Yall keep talking about the thicker parts of a blade and I am talking about just the very little material at the edge. I really don't know why that is so hard to understand...

If the bit is warm, the very edge was subjectively hot. I believe the assumption that powered sharpening weakens the HT is based entirely on factors a person can control, and far from inevitable outcome.

 

[000Robert]

You can do a search, this topic comes up often, with no conclusive evidence either way. The only thing you can do is sharpen a sample knife or tool both ways and compare longevity. I personally have seen no difference. If anything, a carefully belt sharpened edge seems to last longer, not shorter. At high speed the steel comes off with less elongation and there's less chance of pressure folding across the edge. You can argue it both ways, but testing is the final word, and it isn't conclusive in this case.

It would take a highspeed thermal microscope camera to be able to see the cutting edge of the blade closely as a stone or belt sharpened the edge, to be able to see if the tip of the cutting edge changes color while being sharpened.

 

[HeavyHanded]

It would take a highspeed thermal microscope camera to be able to see the cutting edge of the blade closely as a stone or belt sharpened the edge, to be able to see if the tip of the cutting edge changes color while being sharpened.

One member used temp sensitive lacquers, IIRC it was inconclusive although verified the possibility.

Other people have used measuring devices to record temps at point of contact and came back with some crazy high temps.

Bottom line, if the HT is being compromised you'll see a difference in use. I have noticed obvious difference between a 52 and a 58RC HT, the next question is "what is the magnitude of difference?".

If you can't tell side by side, it can't be much.

 

[000Robert]

One member used temp sensitive lacquers, IIRC it was inconclusive although verified the possibility.

Other people have used measuring devices to record temps at point of contact and came back with some crazy high temps.

Bottom line, if the HT is being compromised you'll see a difference in use. I have noticed obvious difference between a 52 and a 58RC HT, the next question is "what is the magnitude of difference?".

If you can't tell side by side, it can't be much.

I didn't think it would be possible to measure the temperature like that since the cutting edge is so small and in fact, would cool very fast since the rest of the blade will act as a heat sink.

 

[fishface5]

Yes to heat sink. The problem is the tip, where there is less surrounding material for the heat to disperse into. I have gotten tiny black overheated tips on a couple knives using power equipment when I was being sloppy. Don't be sloppy and it's fine. And so much faster! For a business model, time is money so power equipment sets the bevel fast, then you can do finish work manually if desired.