Using Cracked Ivory Handles - Does it Impair a Knife's Value??

RWS

RWS

Joined
Jul 10, 2003
Messages
12,072
In the short time that I have been collecting custom knives it seems to me that the vast majority of knife handles that are being made from ivory are being made from cracked ivory. And this stuff is very expensive!

My concern is that someday these cracked ivory handled knives will be looked at as being flawed by people I may want to sell or trade them to which would ultimately impair their value. I think a lot of knifemakers, as well as collectors, accept these cracks as "normal". However, should this stuff really be considered acceptable for knifemaking?

I have to believe, out of ignorance mind you, that this is probably the only material being used today by knifemakers where starting with cracks in the material is acceptable. Some of the cracks I have seen on some very expensive NEW knives are quite large while others are hairline, and probably still growing!

Would a reputable knifemaker use other material with cracks running through it such as wood, Stag, bone or anything else? I don't recall seeing any at knife shows.

When ordering a knife for myself, choosing a handle material is one of the most difficult choices. I like exotic materials, as most people probably do and I think ivory is very nice looking--after I get past the cracks. These cracks can even add an aged appearance to a knife, which can be nice.

Apparently, these fissures are not considered a blemish or a defect in the material, but instead are thought of, and accepted, as part of the whole ivory package. I'm pretty confident that these handles are not going to fall off the knives, but at the same time I do question the structural integrity of the cracked ivory we're seeing more and more of. I have to wonder if this in fact renders these knives unusable limiting them to just show pieces, not that I would use any of these very expensive pieces anyway.

Are my concerns warranted??
 
My guess is that there were no cracks in the ivory when the maker made the knife. What likely happened is that he overheated the pins, bolts, screws, guard, bolsters, or some other metal part in close contact with the ivory during the finishing process. The heat in that localized area is where the cracks began. And, you are right- they can certainly keep growing.

I don't know any maker who is willing to make a knife with material that is flawed before he sets his hand to it, and most of us learn quickly, given the cost of the scrap in this case, to work ivory handles slowly and cooly.
 
I've talked to certain knifemakers that say they in fact do know that the cracks are there when they begin making the knife and they fill the cracks with Super Glue.
They buy the ivory with the cracks in the material and secure the cracks as best they can before or during the process of making the handle .
 
Surface fissures and cracks are definitely a part of the character of mammoth ivory, but they should not be through and through and they should not be a result of the knifemaker's installation of the handles on the knife (e.g., cracks radiating from pics). You can find ivory with smooth, unblemished surfaces, but it is not as common. Some makers will fill small cracks with super glue to give a nice smooth finish. It depends on the maker's, and the collector's preference, but there is a definite difference between "character lines" and a piece of ivory that has cracked through and is susceptible to breaking apart.
 
BTW, surface cracks are definitely something to be desired:

guild02.jpg
 
RWS - what type of "ivory" are you referring to: elephant; mammoth; walrus etc?

Cheers,

Roger
 
Ivory scales will crack. It is a natural material that moves depending on temperature and humidity. The handle and pins are rigid and don't move with the ivory, so .... CRRRACK :D. Unless you keep your knife in controled environment this will happen sooner or later.
I have a very cool friction folder, Wootz blade, creamy mamooth ivory scales .... purty. After a year or so there was a small crack where one pin opposed the ivory's movement. I paniked, sent it to the maker to have the crack properly filled and stuff. Now it has at least three cracks, I just fill them with glue and clean the mess with with acetone. They are part of the knife and don't bother me any more.
If you want a ivory handle less prone to cracking, go for a narrow tang fixed blade. Just my opinion.

Here is the "cracker" ;)

friction_folder1.jpg
 
I completely agree with the above post.

Ivory, like wood, expands and contracts with the humidity and temps around it, and being glued down, most of it will eventually crack.

On the other hand, I have rarely seen any very old ivory that isnt cracked........it is all found in the ground and usually up above the Canadian border or Siberia and has been thru more thaws and freezes than we can think about.........so you need to learn to work around the cracks or incorporate them into the handle.
 
Originally posted by flava
If you want a ivory handle less prone to cracking, go for a narrow tang fixed blade. Just my opinion.
Click to expand...

You got that right! 12 years and no cracks (keeping my fingers crossed). Knife by Brian Lyttle, pic by Murray White.

orig.jpg


Cheers,

Roger
 
Let it in sunlight for 10 minutes than put it in the fridge to see what happens :D
That's a beauty of a knife!
 
originally posted by RogerP
RWS - what type of "ivory" are you referring to: elephant; mammoth; walrus etc?
Click to expand...
I'm referring to all of them but mostly mammoth, mastodon and walrus because that is the type I think we are seeing mostly here in the US.
Maybe the cracking does not occur as much in elephant ivory. I think it is illegal to import the newer ivories in the US. However, I'm not certain about this.
For example, go to Knifeart.com or any custom knife site and look at the knives made with these older ivories. Many appear to be quite cracked. They're still beautiful! But as a knife collector should I worry about these cracks ultimately bringing the value of the knife down? Even if the cracks don't get worse than when the handle was put on by the maker, will this become an issue?
Furthermore, when describing one of these knives to someone you want to sell it to can you really use the word "MINT" in the description?
 
Okay, if we're talking mammoth and mastadon, then I absolutely agree with what Tom Mayo posted above - the cracks will almost always be there. In this type of material, I by no means consider it to detract from the value of the knife. The cracks and the colours are there because this material has been for many millenia - these features contribute to the character of the material and the knife.

Take a look at this Patton knife - the cracks and colours in the ivory compliment the swirls in the damascus quie nicely. (This is Coop's photo, but I can't recall where I got it from). I would have no difficulty describing the knife as "mint" notwithstanding the cracks.

orig.jpg


For some reason fossil walrus ivory does not seem as suspectible to cracks (and it's also one of my favorite handle materials). Here's some lovely wlarus on an equally lovely Al Dippold folder:

orig.jpg


Cheers,

Roger
 
I pay a premium for mastodon with surface cracking.....This stuff is 20,000 years old by a conservative estimate and usually spent most of that time buried in a swamp in the far north....it should show it's age.

The trick in picking mastodon is to recognize surface cracking and avoid deep cracks that could affect the material structurally or cut around it if it is present. I carry a mastodon handled folder everyday, it gets wet, cold, and even takes the odd trip through the washing machine when I forget to remove it from my blue jeans...the handle material stands up to this treatment, surface cracks and all.
 
I don't believe anyone who owns expensive, beautiful ivory handled knives, like the ones pictured in this thread, would ever use them for heavy duty work.
BUT, how would most of this ivory stand up in the field if a knife like these ever were used extensively? Or are these knives really only intended for show?"
EDITED-
As I was writing this reply, George Tichbourne was writing his just above. There goes much of my theory on ivory toughness based on his rough treatment of such a knife.
 
I guess I was not very clear in my post above. I was referring to ivory that is not *supposed* to be cracked, rather than fossil bark ivory. Obviously, the weathering and mineral absorbtion (as well as the cracks) can add much interest.

What I was talking about is what most of us think of when we talk about ivory: smooth, creamy white stuff suitable for scrimshaw. For what it's worth, this pic is of a knife that I made a couple of years ago, and one that I haven't finished yet. I took the pic 5 minutes ago for this post.

Both are/will be handled with ancient mammoth ivory- core material that I bought from Rick Fields a long time ago. No cracks, before use or after use. The finished knife has made a couple of transatlatic trips, too. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
ivory.jpg
 
Originally posted by george tichbourne
I carry a mastodon handled folder everyday, it gets wet, cold, and even takes the odd trip through the washing machine when I forget to remove it from my blue jeans...the handle material stands up to this treatment, surface cracks and all.
Click to expand...

Is this the one George?

orig.jpg


Man, the thought of that little beauty going through the spin cycle makes me want to cry!

Cheers,

Roger
 
Thats the one Roger. The only wear problem that I have is the etching on the damasteel bolsters...Occasionally I have to unscrew the bolsters and re etch them to keep them looking pretty.

The stellite blade lasted 4 1/2 months before needing sharpening.

I did find out that a little Fleecy fabric softener really smooths out the action, or is it the fact that the action is finally cleaned out after going through the spin cycle.
 
As far as value is concerned, I am positive that surface cracks on ancient ivory will have no deleterious effect. One of my favorite ivories is bark elephant. If it has turned a little yellow, I like it even more.

Ivory is not meant for usse on a hard working knife. It will stand up well to everyday use, but I don't think I would want it on a chopper or camp knife.
 
Originally posted by Keith Montgomery
As far as value is concerned, I am positive that surface cracks on ancient ivory will have no deleterious effect. One of my favorite ivories is bark elephant. If it has turned a little yellow, I like it even more.
Click to expand...
I can understand the real bark of the ivory having cracks, just like the bark of a tree. What I'm seeing mostly in the knife world, and have even bought, are knives that are made with this old ivory being polished with the bark removed. The surface cracks are at this depth of the ivory, just beneath the bark.
I wonder how long these surface cracks remain just surface cracks. Do you think they will start getting deeper in the ivory or stay pretty much just at this surface level?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top