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I don't mean to hijack a thread, but what about real benefits of stabilizing old ivory? Or can it really be done properly because of the nature of the material?
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Using Cracked Ivory Handles - Does it Impair a Knife's Value??
- Thread starter RWS
- Start date
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I've been told by some that stabilizing ivory can't be done effectively.
If in fact the true overall strength of this cracking material is questionable at best, while most knifemakers would avoid any other cracking handle material AND are continually seeking to build better and stronger knives, why use it?
Don't get me wrong. I think ivory is beautiful stuff, especially Walrus ivory. But does this cracked stuff belong on a $2000 knife?
I wish more knifemakers would input here. I'm not trying to win an argument, but starting with cracked handle material in a new knife does not make any sense to me. AND THIS IS MOST LIKELY DUE TO MY COMPLETE AND TOTAL IGNORANCE OF KNIFEMAKING!
Most of the makers out there are geniuses at making knives and it is not my intention to impugn their work.
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RWS, thanks, and I do agree with you. I like the look of ivory, but I can't see why ivory is priced as high as it is, given the problems it has.
- Joined
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Stabilizing ivory changes the feel and look of the material. It can also affect the colour. It is porous and can be stabilized, but I personally don't like the results of this process in conjunction with ivory.
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- Nov 14, 2001
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RWS,
I don't collect this style of knife so don't have any real first hand knowledge on the subject. I do know that I've been wow'ed by colorful examples of "bark" mammoth ivory. Especially folders with colored mosaic damascus, ala Rick Dunkerly, Shane Taylor and Josh Smith, among others. As for "pristine" elephant ivory, I tend to appreciate carved examples more. Joe Szilaski, Bailey Bradshaw and Ron Newton come to mind in this style.
If I'm not mistaken, one of the reasons ivory is so valuable, at least historically, is because it's compact structure allows it to be carved very intricately.
-Jose
I don't collect this style of knife so don't have any real first hand knowledge on the subject. I do know that I've been wow'ed by colorful examples of "bark" mammoth ivory. Especially folders with colored mosaic damascus, ala Rick Dunkerly, Shane Taylor and Josh Smith, among others. As for "pristine" elephant ivory, I tend to appreciate carved examples more. Joe Szilaski, Bailey Bradshaw and Ron Newton come to mind in this style.
If I'm not mistaken, one of the reasons ivory is so valuable, at least historically, is because it's compact structure allows it to be carved very intricately.
-Jose
I'm no expert on ivory, but after 18 years as a scrimshander, and 17 years as a member of the Knifemakers Guild of SA, I've probably seen more ivory handled knives than most.
ELEPHANT IVORY . . . after decades of foraging for food an elephant's tusks will develop a "bark" texture, mostly near the tips. It is an entirely natural process, highly sought after, and can never be viewed as flawed ivory. Any knifemaker who sands through the bark layer to use the plain ivory underneath should be shot!
Ivory is a living material, regardless of how long it has been stored or cured. It is beautiful and possesses unique qualities. It has a warmth and lustre that cannot be matched with any other natural material. It is also fickle and fragile, yet also strong and durable. It has a mind of its own, and if it chooses to crack it will do so no matter how much love and attention is paid to it. At the same time I must add that I have a 20-year-old Owen Wood hunter in my collection which has skinned antelope in winter show, and been baked under the African summer sun. It does not have a single blemish. Lying next to it is a folder which was lovingly cared for and pampered, which is cracked right down the centre.
Oiling might help to seal the ivory, but it will also dis-colour it over time. I am not sure if ivory can be stabilised in the same manner as wood, horn or bone. It is not sufficiently porous. As an aside . . we've experimented with colouring ivory. We immersed handle slabs in dye, we boiled it, we even put it in the microwave! The colour barely stained the skin, but more interestingly the ivory didn't crack or buckle at all.
OTHER IVORIES . . . warthogs use their tusks to forage for food as well, so marks and stains are an integral part of the tusks makeup. Hippo tooth ivory is well protected under an incredibly strong layer of enamel. It is opaque in colour and usually pretty lifeless. The enamel is quite different and will probably outlast the knife! Whale tooth is often cracked through poor storage. Its hard, and glassy, but can have a beautiful grain. I have little experience with walrus, so can't comment.
FOSSILISED IVORY . . . is noticeably porous and should be handled with care. Most knifemakers automatically super-glue mammoth the moment they slab it. I have seen well finished mammoth (i.e. a sealed surface) visibly wrinkle up when cleaned with a damp cloth. It returned to normal a few minutes later, but the reaction to moisture was dramatic.
Regards, HILTON
ELEPHANT IVORY . . . after decades of foraging for food an elephant's tusks will develop a "bark" texture, mostly near the tips. It is an entirely natural process, highly sought after, and can never be viewed as flawed ivory. Any knifemaker who sands through the bark layer to use the plain ivory underneath should be shot!
Ivory is a living material, regardless of how long it has been stored or cured. It is beautiful and possesses unique qualities. It has a warmth and lustre that cannot be matched with any other natural material. It is also fickle and fragile, yet also strong and durable. It has a mind of its own, and if it chooses to crack it will do so no matter how much love and attention is paid to it. At the same time I must add that I have a 20-year-old Owen Wood hunter in my collection which has skinned antelope in winter show, and been baked under the African summer sun. It does not have a single blemish. Lying next to it is a folder which was lovingly cared for and pampered, which is cracked right down the centre.
Oiling might help to seal the ivory, but it will also dis-colour it over time. I am not sure if ivory can be stabilised in the same manner as wood, horn or bone. It is not sufficiently porous. As an aside . . we've experimented with colouring ivory. We immersed handle slabs in dye, we boiled it, we even put it in the microwave! The colour barely stained the skin, but more interestingly the ivory didn't crack or buckle at all.
OTHER IVORIES . . . warthogs use their tusks to forage for food as well, so marks and stains are an integral part of the tusks makeup. Hippo tooth ivory is well protected under an incredibly strong layer of enamel. It is opaque in colour and usually pretty lifeless. The enamel is quite different and will probably outlast the knife! Whale tooth is often cracked through poor storage. Its hard, and glassy, but can have a beautiful grain. I have little experience with walrus, so can't comment.
FOSSILISED IVORY . . . is noticeably porous and should be handled with care. Most knifemakers automatically super-glue mammoth the moment they slab it. I have seen well finished mammoth (i.e. a sealed surface) visibly wrinkle up when cleaned with a damp cloth. It returned to normal a few minutes later, but the reaction to moisture was dramatic.
Regards, HILTON
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Regardless of the type of Ivory eventually most if not all Ivories will develop checks.Changes in climate,handling ,drilling,polishing can all create differences in temperature which can cause Ivory to check and crack,especially around any pins.In my experience this does not change the value of a knife so long as the handle is intact.My preference these days is for Pearl and Stag almost always over Ivories,especially on high end collectibles,
Dave Ellis,ABS,M.S.
http://www.exquisiteknives.com
http://www.mastersmith.com
Dave Ellis,ABS,M.S.
http://www.exquisiteknives.com
http://www.mastersmith.com
I've seen quite a few knives with no cracks. It's always the big slabs that are the ones that held up. What could we expect on small
thin scales with pins?
Value? I look at the unstable scales such as ivory and horn with the now and in the future point of view. The condition today vs the future is not all that difficult to predict.
Cracked scales might not mater at all to me. Also scales that are flawless today might not interest me at all if the design of the knife makes me feel that even under very careful storage the potential for a lot of problems exists. I always keep that in mind when evaluating.
I bet just about any knifemaker here could look at a knife and tell us where to expect problems in the future.
thin scales with pins?
Value? I look at the unstable scales such as ivory and horn with the now and in the future point of view. The condition today vs the future is not all that difficult to predict.
Cracked scales might not mater at all to me. Also scales that are flawless today might not interest me at all if the design of the knife makes me feel that even under very careful storage the potential for a lot of problems exists. I always keep that in mind when evaluating.
I bet just about any knifemaker here could look at a knife and tell us where to expect problems in the future.
RWS . . . I guess it all depends on how one intends using and handling your EDC. Some guys are pretty hard on their knives, use them in extreme weather conditions, put them in dishwashers, etc. Used in an "urban" environment (i.e. a "city" knife) mammoth ivory will be fine. I carried an Owen Wood mammoth handled linerlock for many years without any damage to the slabs.
Mammoth is such a beautiful material, especially if one can get handles with blues, greens and browns, that it brings pleasure to owning and using the knife every day. I spend my days surrounded by materials whose age is measured in single digit years, to personally own something which is 10's of thousands of years old is special, and certainly worth taking care of.
Regards, HILTON
Mammoth is such a beautiful material, especially if one can get handles with blues, greens and browns, that it brings pleasure to owning and using the knife every day. I spend my days surrounded by materials whose age is measured in single digit years, to personally own something which is 10's of thousands of years old is special, and certainly worth taking care of.
Regards, HILTON
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- Jul 10, 2003
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I agree that this mammoth and walrus ivory is so nice looking that it truly is hard to resist. In addition, as you mentioned, the fact that this stuff is thousands of years old really is neat.
No more than 2 weeks ago I purchased one of the most gorgeous knives I have ever seen, made by both Jim Crowell and John Fitch in a collaborative effort. The walrus ivory has such a beautiful dark brown and light cream color running all around and through it. It also looks and feels like strong stuff.
Thanks HiltonP for your helpful input!