Using newsprint as a repeatable test for comparing sharpness

[Dog of War]

Same time that this thread - "what finish to put on edges?" - was running

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=419108

I was working with some modern Mora knives I recently got, thinking I'd like to do a review. One thing that impresses me so much with these bargain knives is how easily they sharpen, no problems with wire edges or edge chipping, and the high level of sharpness I can get without a lot of work.

With quality of discussions here being very high I didn't want to just give my subjective feelings about sharpness or ease of sharpening, but have some kind of objective comparison. So this part of the discussion linked above got me thinking:

Cliff, I am a bit confused as to push cutting newspaper. Is it the flimsiness of the paper that makes it harder to cut when you try to cut farther away from where you are pinching the newspaper? The way I'm doing it, it doesn't really seem possible to do it ~3 inches, no matter how sharp the knife is. I can get around .5 to 1 inch with my Sebenza. Please tell me if I'm doing it correctly.

Yes, essentially you are using the tension in the paper to measure the sharpness. Moving significantly out past the point at which it is held is very difficult. For quite some time I had been satisfied if edges would push cut paper at all.

I've push cut my share of newspaper, but never measured it like that. After playing around with this a bit I decided I'd cut a bunch of squares of newspaper, all from the same paper to control consistency as best as possible, all 2.5x2.5" to keep tension and weight factors consistent. Once I started measuring and comparing blades, I was amazed how good a test this is.

The two knives I plan to review are a Frosts 906 with laminated carbon steel blade, and an Eriksson 545 made of Sandvik 12C27mod. Both have Scandi grinds, the 906 just a bit more obtuse than the 10 degree per side of the 545, both with light 15/side microbevels using the Sharpmaker fine ceramics. IMO this is an efficient, lazy man's way of doing routine sharpening, with normal maintenance of an edge usually taking less than a minute.

For comparison I decided to use two knives I've had for a good while that I know take an excellent edge, both made of steels that seem to be well regarded for this: a VG-10 Spyderco Calypso Jr. and a Bark River Highland made of A2. The Caly Jr. has a primary edge of 11-12 degrees per side, the heavily reprofiled Highland has a final edge, or apex, of the same or less. Both got a fresh 15/side microbevel for the test.

Distance from point of hold where push cutting was possible as follows:

Frosts 906 - 1.4"
Eriksson 545 - 1.3"
Calypso Jr. - 1.2"
BRKT Highland - 1.3"

Since these numbers wouldn't have meant much to me before doing this testing, in familiar terms I would call these decent, fine edges, cleanly shaving arm hair, never "stalling" on a tough fiber push cutting newspaper, probably good enough to even make a few wood carvers happy. This is actually a little better than the edge I usually put on an EDC or general utility knife, where I usually run a bit more obtuse microbevel for added toughness and resistance to impacts.

Wanting to see if I could squeeze some extra performance out of the laminated steel 906, I carefully worked it on a strop with CrO, getting it to where it would push cut the newspaper squares at 1.8" from point of hold. Just how sharp is this? It shaves arm hair above the skin. It will easily fillet a hair, as Cliff calls it (which I'd never tried before, pretty cool.) And it will cut a free hanging medium-fine human hair less than five inches long. If I've ever gotten a knife this sharp before, I'm unaware of it.

I'm very surprised how consistent this test is. Push cutting newsprint there are always the occasional failures for the cut to start normally, but still the 906 would pretty consistently make 1.4" and no better, the 545 and Highland 1.3" but never 1.4", etc. This was even more surprising considering the paper is being held in the fingers .... though to make it possible to measure somewhat accurately I was pinching the paper between my thumbnail and index finger, which I think helped make the hold and tension on the paper pretty consistent across all the testing.

Also .... in the earlier thread I gave the link to, I posted about using wax paper for testing sharpness. Wax paper is much harder to push cut than newsprint, but I now know that it isn't as useful. When sharpened to push cut the newsprint at 1.8" from point of hold, the 906 will only cut wax paper at a little under half an inch from point of hold; at the 1.4" level measured on newsprint, it can only cut the wax paper at about .2" or less. So there's just not enough spread to the scale using wax paper, unless you were dealing with levels of sharpness beyond what I need, or am capable of.

Doing this I learned some interesting things about Scandi grinds and attaining high levels of sharpness. I'm saving that for the review.

 

[HoB]

Very nice review, Dog!
Do you want to give us a bit more information about your sharpening? Stones, grid, sharpeing system etc?

 

[Dog of War]

Thank you, HoB. You're definitely one of those guys who sets the high standard I mentioned, so always appreciate your input.

Funny you would ask more about how I sharpen .... I do take a lazy approach to it because the only knives I find interesting anymore are those that have good steel and a really good heat treat. Blades like this are never a problem to sharpen (if not changing profile greatly.) Most knives that take a lot of effort are those with bad steel or heat treat, and either form awful wire edges or want to chip when sharpening .... IMO they're not worth the fuss and bother for a knife you're going to carry and use because you won't get solid performance anyway. I think it took me way too long to learn this, BTW, so that's my excuse if I sound like a zealot.

From your posts I think you and I like the same basic edge geometry, 12 degrees/side or less. I never go any finer than 80-55 micron media - about 180-240 grit - for the primary. I only use flat media, stone or paper for this stage, never rods or anything that could put too much pressure on a small area of the edge. With a good blade I can almost always get rid of the burr just by giving it a few light alternating strokes when finishing the primary. I then go straight to fine ceramic with either the Sharpmaker or Crock-Sticks (I think it is) and add a 15-20 degree microbevel, depending on use. I use only very light pressure doing the microbevel, reducing pressure as I go, and test sharpness every 5 strokes or so. Usually 10-15 strokes per side is all that's needed.

Only real exception to this, with full convex grinds I sometimes try to match the rest of the blade finish using wet-dry paper afterwards. Even then I rarely go higher than 600 grit, and use 400 more often.

That's really about it. I give most the credit for this lazy approach working so well to having the right steel and heat treat to start with. Because it's a hobby, I of course experiment with stropping and other techniques, but I can't say it gains me anything in terms of practical cutting. I probably won't care that my knife can fillet hair if hair is all I've got eat.

 

[gunmike1]

Looks like a good way to get consistent feedback from the newsprint. I've never tried cutting up squares like that, but I will try it the next time I sharpen. Hopefully I can get some useful info from it. BTW, what newsprint are you using?

 

[hardheart]

I'm thinking of building a jig. Should be pretty easy, could probably just mount a binder clip on a small base to hole the paper.

 

[HoB]

Thanks, Dog. Good information. I totally agree with you, that it is not worth it putting much effort into sharpening steels that you don't like (whether it is a bad steel or heat treat or something else). I give Cliff a lot of credit that he still works with those steels and tries to coax the maximum performance out of it.
I don't think you are lazy at all, I think you are selling yourself short . I think, once you kind of understand the basic principle and acquired some practice, you simply don't have to put in that much work for a sharp edge. I use a very similar method as you do, when I am not working on water stones. DMT 220 to form the edge at approximately 12 deg per side and then microbevel with the Sharpmaker. On waterstones, I take the finish to high grit levels on what you call the primary but that is mostly because it is "fun".

I think your thread should be made a sticky to show people that are new to sharpening how to get clearly a VERY high quality edge in a very straight forward manner with an affordable (if not cheap) setup :thumbup: . If I understand correctly, all you are using is a coarse 200ish stone/sandpaper, the Sharpmaker, and a strop?

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Nice work.

So there's just not enough spread to the scale using wax paper ...

That is actually one of the fundamental aspects of data acquisition. The smaller the range/noise ratio the harder it is to separate readings. If it is close to one then everything reads the same.

Interesting comment about a lot of force when shaping. I noticed recently when reworking a cheap stainless knife that under high pressure the edge was deforming about 0.2 mm back from the edge. All of this metal has to be removed before the edge will form clean.

... the only knives I find interesting anymore are those that have good steel and a really good heat treat. Blades like this are never a problem to sharpen (if not changing profile greatly.)

You would think that this would be fundamental to cutlery steels. Unfortunately there are far too many steels being use in knives which are not actually cutlery steels or are mismatched to the class of knife.

I think, once you kind of understand the basic principle and acquired some practice, you simply don't have to put in that much work for a sharp edge.

Yes, the first thing to to realize that shaping is very different from sharpening and use of multi-bevels makes a massive difference.

-Cliff

 

[smegs]

Excellent post Dog. It's nice to see a post that corroborates my own experience with sharpening. It's even nicer when it's constructed and written as well as yours. Good job.
:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

 

[Dog of War]

Looks like a good way to get consistent feedback from the newsprint. I've never tried cutting up squares like that, but I will try it the next time I sharpen. Hopefully I can get some useful info from it. BTW, what newsprint are you using?

I didn't expect this kind of consistency at all. But then I never before tried using newsprint in a consistent manner, or measuring the results!

The newsprint I used was from the Salinas Californian, seems pretty much your typical newspaper newsprint. I made sure to make all cuts in the direction that the paper tears cleanly. Figuring this is a relative measurement anyway, and since newsprint varies a lot - even different newsprint in different sections of the same paper sometimes I think - all that really matters is that you use the same newsprint throughout a round of testing.

I'm thinking of building a jig. Should be pretty easy, could probably just mount a binder clip on a small base to hole the paper.

I tried holding the paper with one of those spring clips with a magnet on it, the kind you use to put notes and things on the refrigerator, but the jaws didn't line up well. I think it'd be a great idea to try if you had a better clip that really clamped down hard. Thumbnail against the pad of the index finger works pretty darned good though.

Thanks, Dog. Good information. I totally agree with you, that it is not worth it putting much effort into sharpening steels that you don't like (whether it is a bad steel or heat treat or something else). I give Cliff a lot of credit that he still works with those steels and tries to coax the maximum performance out of it.
I don't think you are lazy at all, I think you are selling yourself short . I think, once you kind of understand the basic principle and acquired some practice, you simply don't have to put in that much work for a sharp edge. I use a very similar method as you do, when I am not working on water stones. DMT 220 to form the edge at approximately 12 deg per side and then microbevel with the Sharpmaker. On waterstones, I take the finish to high grit levels on what you call the primary but that is mostly because it is "fun".

I think your thread should be made a sticky to show people that are new to sharpening how to get clearly a VERY high quality edge in a very straight forward manner with an affordable (if not cheap) setup :thumbup: . If I understand correctly, all you are using is a coarse 200ish stone/sandpaper, the Sharpmaker, and a strop?

I thought about Cliff's "no-name Chinese" while posting this, and I see that as valuable work too, but in a different way. He's using it to blow up more myths, with results that have application beyond just the knives involved. I'm guessing he still plans to carry the Sebenza more than the NNC-EDC. Besides it makes quite a statement when a nameless manufacturer in China puts as good or better a blade in their $5 product than some well-known companies put in their latest tactical gotta-have.

I still have tools that I don't sharpen the way I described for various reasons. Axes and hatchets I sharpen with emery paper on a rubber sanding block, which for reasons I can only guess about keeps them from forming wire edges. I have a couple sentimental favorites that I like to use, so cut them some slack and give them extra cosmetic care. And I experiment, which is a lot of fun.

I've have a lot of sharpening stuff that I've been given and accumulated, but I could do fine with a lot less. A 220 grit DMT and a Sharpmaker would do be fine, IMO a real high end setup in fact. Or a medium SiC or AO benchstone and an inexpensive Crock-Sticks with only the white rods. The other stuff can be handy to have around, but for 95% of the sharpening you do..... And the only stropping I did above was finessing the 906 to get the 1.8" reading. Though I've never tried the Sharpmaker ultra-fine rods, I'm beginning to think that could be a better way to go than stropping if you need an even finer edge than the fine ceramics produce.

Odd, what a twisted path I've taken, only to find out that this is really just that simple. I think one thing I would tell someone just learning to sharpen is to begin with a good blade, minimum 58-59 HRC with a good heat treat, preferably a low alloy tool steel or simple stainless like Sandvik. Save the frustration of lesser blades for later, or maybe never.

Nice work.

Thanks. Plenty of credit to you.

... the only knives I find interesting anymore are those that have good steel and a really good heat treat. Blades like this are never a problem to sharpen (if not changing profile greatly.)

You would think that this would be fundamental to cutlery steels. Unfortunately there are far too many steels being use in knives which are not actually cutlery steels or are mismatched to the class of knife.

Sadly I think most consumers today think of a knife as throw-away item, a prybar-screwdriver-scraper combo tool with one side that you can sometimes cut something with if you push hard enough. But why the blade enthusiast market isn't more demanding, I don't understand. Maybe there's only a handful of us left who have anything to cut that requires a sharp edge .... or appreciate it at least.

Excellent post Dog. It's nice to see a post that corroborates my own experience with sharpening. It's even nicer when it's constructed and written as well as yours. Good job.
:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

Thanks, smegs. I hope you were one who figured out quicker than I did that the K.I.S.S. principle applies to sharpening, like it does so many things.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I'm guessing he still plans to carry the Sebenza more than the NNC-EDC.

Currently I mainly carry a Byrd Finch and Fallkniven/Krein U2. The reground U2 is far superior to the small Sebenza in regards to edge durability at the same edge profile so it has basically directly replaced it. I intend to do a comparison between them on cardboard/wood at some point as the primary/edge grinds are almost identical after the U2 was hollowed by Krein. However I am kind of hesitant because the Sebenza has been fracturing readily on the Sharpmaker the last few times it was sharpening so I don't think it is meaningful as a reference for S30V which I would like to benchmark against SPGS as the two are very similar. However I recently got a set of medium/fine/u-fine Spyderco benchstones and I need to give them a workout anyway though I am leaning towards the Zubeng hunter, 52100/MEUK and Mora 2000.

Besides it makes quite a statement when a nameless manufacturer in China puts as good or better a blade in their $5 product than some well-known companies put in their latest tactical gotta-have.

Yeah, it is kind of absurd that so much promotion is put on steels and not the geometry. In general before jumping to a high end knife I would recommend that you upgrade to high end sharpening and forget about 20 degree edge angles that are not on splitting axes.

Maybe there's only a handful of us left who have anything to cut that requires a sharp edge .... or appreciate it at least.

It is a low number, on average how many people a day do you meet who carries and sharpens an EDC knife. Even the hunters, fishermen, and carpenters I know rarely sharpen their tools.

-Cliff

 

[Dog of War]

I'm guessing he still plans to carry the Sebenza more than the NNC-EDC.

Currently I mainly carry a Byrd Finch and Fallkniven/Krein U2. The reground U2 is far superior to the small Sebenza in regards to edge durability at the same edge profile so it has basically directly replaced it. I intend to do a comparison between them on cardboard/wood at some point as the primary/edge grinds are almost identical after the U2 was hollowed by Krein. However I am kind of hesitant because the Sebenza has been fracturing readily on the Sharpmaker the last few times it was sharpening so I don't think it is meaningful as a reference for S30V which I would like to benchmark against SPGS as the two are very similar. However I recently got a set of medium/fine/u-fine Spyderco benchstones and I need to give them a workout anyway though I am leaning towards the Zubeng hunter, 52100/MEUK and Mora 2000.

That really interests me with your Sebenza. My experiences with S30V actually have had a lot to do with my changes in thinking lately, but I'm still surprised that fracturing would show up now after all the work you've done on that blade. The last S30V knife I had got two full sharpenings, and when it was still chipping when trying to add a microbevel, I gave up (I said I'm lazy, didn't I?) To think it could have been worse deeper down into the core of the blade.....

So I'm cautious of new, untested steels now - interested in ZDP-189 and SGPS for sure, but waiting for more results from the field. I'm really looking forward to your reports on the U2, Cliff, and if the Zubeng's part of the mix that'll be great as well. BTW I commend Fallkniven for the U2, packaging their super-steel offering like that in a traditional lockback folder, keeping cost down using FRN .... to me that sounds like they have a lot of confidence in the blade alone making a big impression, and want to get it into serious users' hands to try.

Also let us know what you think of the u-fine Spyderco. I don't know that I have the skill working offhand to use such a stone to potential, but like I mentioned above I wonder if the u-fine Sharpmaker rods might approach a level of finish and sharpness that rival stropping.

More on the push cut testing ..... Deciding to see how the Eriksson Sandvik 12C27mod responds to stropping, I got the 545 to where it push cuts the newsprint at just over 2" from point of hold. (BTW as my skill seems to be improving, I've been able to get the laminated blade Frosts to over 2.1" now.) A couple interesting things noticed at this level of sharpness, I often don't even hear the newsprint being cut anymore, and the push cut wants to stop after reaching about .2" depth - I think what's happening may actually be due to binding from the newprint (!), reduced tension in the paper below the edge and point of hold, or both. I also found that at this level getting careless on a CrO charged strop and lightly pulling the edge back for only about 3/4" at too elevated an angle ruins all your work, and you have to go back to the fine ceramics and start over.

It's nice for a change to find blades like these that so far have exceeded any expectations I could have had for them, especially the Sandvik stainless.

 

[Old CW4]

The two pics show my method of mounting the DMT 6 inch stones for quick stock removal when reprofiling cheapie knives with my Edge Pro. I use no downward pressure other than the weight of the Edge Pro rod and the stone. It removes the blade material with minimal stripping or ripping. BTW, I talked with the Edge Pro Owner about this and his advice was to make sure you set the ramp far enough in so it contacts the DMT stone at the front to prevent potential damage to the plastic lip which engages the normal Edge Pro stones.

This was a quick/dirty adaptation which works (the kind I like). I could have used rubber bands but had the springs handy.

 

[Old CW4]

Question for Cliff Stamp: Sir, I read somewhere that stropping a knife on a stack, ten sheets or so, of newspaper was the ultimate step for the ultimate sharp edge. Have you tried this? Does it work or is it a fairly tale? Thanks.

 

[sodak]

Dog,

Thanks for the great thread, it's a lot of fun to read!

I got a couple of Spyderco's in ZDP 189 that were just insane. Easily push cutting 2.5 inches from my hand, and tree top trimming arm/leg hair like a straight razor. That's when I decided to see if I could match them. I have gotten knives that sharp before, but they would lose it after a cut or two. Can you say wire edge? After a lot of practice, I'm finally able to get to the same level of sharpness with knives with the "properly" thinned out profile, and it is fun! I had a Calypso Jr. in VG 10 to the point where it could push cut 2.5 inches from my hand, and keep that edge for a while.

It's addictive, isn't it?

 

[Dog of War]

Dog,

Thanks for the great thread, it's a lot of fun to read!

I got a couple of Spyderco's in ZDP 189 that were just insane. Easily push cutting 2.5 inches from my hand, and tree top trimming arm/leg hair like a straight razor. That's when I decided to see if I could match them. I have gotten knives that sharp before, but they would lose it after a cut or two. Can you say wire edge? After a lot of practice, I'm finally able to get to the same level of sharpness with knives with the "properly" thinned out profile, and it is fun! I had a Calypso Jr. in VG 10 to the point where it could push cut 2.5 inches from my hand, and keep that edge for a while.

It's addictive, isn't it?

Like other times when I've started threads on this forum I've kind of thought, "Well, it doesn't seem like I've really got much of anything worth saying, now that I see it written down." Then I get totally caught up in the discussion. Really glad you've enjoyed it, Sodak.

If your newsprint is anything like mine, those are some awesome numbers you're getting. The move from 1.8" to 2.1" on the Frosts 906, the way it now just slips into the paper and you don't realize it, is a real eye-opener .... I can imagine this knife just as easily slipping quietly into a finger if I got careless. 2.5" sounds like a quantum leap to me right now, but maybe I'll get there. Addictive? Oh yeah. And fun.

I'd like to know what you're doing to get that kind of sharpness from your Spydercos, also what kind of edge and microbevel angles you use. I still have a hard time getting consistent results stropping "regular", meaning non-Scandi, edges. I know a lot of the luck I'm having here is thanks to that wide primary edge which obviously makes stropping a lot more idiot/DoW-proof. Any secrets to share?

 

[sodak]

The knives that I've been playing with are a Calypso Jr. and Delica 3, both in VG 10, although I'm able to also get this with a CS Trailguide in Carbon V (little folder, flat ground). I thinned the you-know-what out of both on them on my Edgepro. Took the Trailguide down to the lowest setting, which I think is 10 deg per side, give or take. This is just metal removal, it ruins the looks of the knife. If you really wanted to and had an Edgepro, you could polish it up all the way to 3000 tapes for a nice look. Just for aesthetics. This makes the edge bevel about 0.25 inches wide at the tip, and 0.125 at the choil.

Be forewarned, damage at this thinness is very easy to do. I cut open some of that horrible plastic they use at Costco to package leathermans, and took the last millimeter or two off of the tip of my Calypso. I was just pulling through hard, in a hurry. If I had slowed down, I would have been fine. I re-ground the tip in a couple of minutes on a DMT blue stone, now the tip resembles the tips on the new Delica 4's.

Anyway, once I have it thinned out, **and a burr on each side after thinning**, then I go to a Spyderco Fine Ceramic stone. I have all 3 ceramic stones from Spyderco, but keep the ultra fine for my straight razor. I just lay the knife on it, raise the spine until the bevel is flat, and then raise it just a little more, probably the proverbial dime. It doesn't take much, maybe 3-5 passes per side, alternating strokes. You have to have a very light touch. I've tried this with ceramic sticks, and no way. I get it sharp, but it's almost always a wire edge. My hypothesis is that when the metal is this thin, it deforms readily, and the small contact area from a stick (or sharpmaker) is enough to push it. When I have it flat on a stone, I can keep the pressure on the edge to a minimum.

Anyway, that's what I do. The 2.5 is my all-time best, but can get 1.5 - 2 consistently now. If you're getting 2 or more, I'd be really happy. I've never been able to match Cliff's 3, but I haven't tried my razor yet. I might just have to.... Keep in mind that Cliff is taking his edge down to **half** of mine. I haven't worked up the courage yet....

Good luck!

PS - I whittled some soft wood (Aspen) for about 15 minutes with the Calypso today, it would still shave above skin level afterwards. With a wire edge, one or two pulls through the wood and it's dull.

 

[Dog of War]

Thanks, Sodak. That you're getting this kind of sharpness without stropping really interests me. I assume you've tried adding the microbevel with the Edgepro, but find the Spyderco u-fine gives a better edge? If so do you think it's just that the Spyderco leaves a finer finish, or is it that the Edgepro doesn't lend itself to this? As I understand it the Edgepro isn't infinitely adjustable, so you can't just decide you want to raise the angle 2-3 degrees to add a microbevel.... ?

I can see yours is basically still the same, straight-forward approach HoB and I were discussing: get the primary right with no wire edge, finish with a few strokes to add a microbevel. Of course those two steps sound simpler than they are, because there's skill involved in performing each step optimally.

Another thing, this issue of sharpening pressure that you, Cliff and I have brought up, I wonder if it may be a bigger deal than we sometimes realize. I've heard people say that one thing they like about the Edgepro is that you can apply a lot of pressure when reprofiling .... I'm guessing you don't agree that's good technique. Even on a benchstone, I keep the pressure moderate. Considering how small the contact area is when you're doing the belly on a lot of knives, I've decided it's not good practice to ever bear down hard, unless maybe you're just adding relief further up the blade and not working the edge. Nice and easy, slow and steady seems to win the sharpening race, IMO.

I've got some small Ash branches (helped my cute neighbor trim some trees, she thought the Battle Mistress was great fun! ) I'm going to use for edge retention testing for my review. The Moras did well on some Silver Maple when I was first checking them out, but the Ash should push them harder I think. Maybe I'll jump the gun a little and post initial results to this thread.

 

[smegs]

Thanks, Sodak. That you're getting this kind of sharpness without stropping really interests me. I assume you've tried adding the microbevel with the Edgepro, but find the Spyderco u-fine gives a better edge? If so do you think it's just that the Spyderco leaves a finer finish, or is it that the Edgepro doesn't lend itself to this? As I understand it the Edgepro isn't infinitely adjustable, so you can't just decide you want to raise the angle 2-3 degrees to add a microbevel.... ?

The edge pro can be adjusted to any angle between it's max and min angles. I don't strop that much anymore since getting the ultra fine rods for the Sharpmaker. I usually like to go at least 3 degrees or more for the secondary bevel. I use the ultra fines to basically cut the wire edge by raising the angle slightly and making one or two passes with just the weight of the knife on the corners. I just use the flats to do the tip. I'm able to get out to 1.25 inches with my Endura (@12 degrees with 15 degree micro). I can cut through the whole page at an angle without any slicing motion. That's good enough for me.

I can see yours is basically still the same, straight-forward approach HoB and I were discussing: get the primary right with no wire edge, finish with a few strokes to add a microbevel. Of course those two steps sound simpler than they are, because there's skill involved in performing each step optimally.

I don't worry about removing the wire edge on the primary. I'll get the edge crisp on the secondary bevel. I do however make sure that a wire edge forms on both sides before moving on to the micro bevel.

Another thing, this issue of sharpening pressure that you, Cliff and I have brought up, I wonder if it may be a bigger deal than we sometimes realize. I've heard people say that one thing they like about the Edgepro is that you can apply a lot of pressure when reprofiling .... I'm guessing you don't agree that's good technique. Even on a benchstone, I keep the pressure moderate. Considering how small the contact area is when you're doing the belly on a lot of knives, I've decided it's not good practice to ever bear down hard, unless maybe you're just adding relief further up the blade and not working the edge. Nice and easy, slow and steady seems to win the sharpening race, IMO.

When using the edge pro, you can feel the wire edge flip to the other side. Using just the weight of the stone will flip or cut the wire in one or two passes. After I'm done with the secondary on the Edge Pro, it's on the the ultra fine Spyderco rods for two or three very light passes on the corners and then one or two at a slightly higher angle. I've gotten great results with this procedure and it seems to produce the most durable edge so far.

I've got some small Ash branches (helped my cute neighbor trim some trees, she thought the Battle Mistress was great fun! ) I'm going to use for edge retention testing for my review. The Moras did well on some Silver Maple when I was first checking them out, but the Ash should push them harder I think. Maybe I'll jump the gun a little and post initial results to this thread.

Here is where I think stropping helps by softening that abrupt change in angle and relieving some of the lateral stress on the edge when chopping. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. I don't know if it's right or wrong but I've never had these degrees of sharpness before coming to these forums and trying different things and different systems other than freehand. I still freehand the primaries on some of my knives but the Edge Pro edge just looks better and the edges just seem crisper than any other system.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I'm still surprised that fracturing would show up now after all the work you've done on that blade.

It explains to me some of the earlier results such as when it basically exploded on the plywood. As it is now it doesn't get much use. I have emailed Reeve about it with no responce. I might get it rehardened but that is difficult to do with the complex steels if the structure was damaged because they are difficult to normalize.

The last S30V knife I had got two full sharpenings, and when it was still chipping when trying to add a microbevel, I gave up

The Sebenza was interesting because I had been using it on the Sharpmaker for some time and then it just suddenly starting cracking apart and would not sharpen at all. I actually ground off a number of visible chips and there was no sharpening responce to the edge at all. I think what may have happened is that the primary edge grind was too low and the steel was fatigued and thus all that edge is now weakened steel.

I commend Fallkniven for the U2, packaging their super-steel offering like that in a traditional lockback folder, keeping cost down using FRN .... to me that sounds like they have a lot of confidence in the blade alone making a big impression, and want to get it into serious users' hands to try.

That is very much like Peter, you get that as soon as you talk to him. He is very much a knife user as well as manufacturer.

I wonder if the u-fine Sharpmaker rods might approach a level of finish and sharpness that rival stropping.

Yes, the fine ones alone give a high degree of push cutting. I have to check the Zubeng responce to different hones anyway so I can use it to benchmark the grits. It is near the ideal steel to use for such an evaluation because the carbide size is small and the hardness near optimal.

I read somewhere that stropping a knife on a stack, ten sheets or so, of newspaper was the ultimate step for the ultimate sharp edge.

I have seen a measured responce to plain newsprint after 0.5 micron loaded chromium/aluminum oxide, but it is very small and mainly an effect of cleaning the edge. With proper stropping technique on the really fine buffing compounds plain paper could do little.

If your newsprint is anything like mine ...

It only costs a stamp to find out.

I still have a hard time getting consistent results stropping "regular", meaning non-Scandi, edges.

The steel on those knives has a large influence as well because it is optomized for that type of edge.

Be forewarned, damage at this thinness is very easy to do. I cut open some of that horrible plastic they use at Costco to package leathermans, and took the last millimeter or two off of the tip of my Calypso.

I'd really wish I lived next to you and Thom, or at least within driving distance. Generally I consider 10 degrees more of a rough working bevel (excluding hard/thick metals) for smaller knives. I am as hard or harder on the 5/10 profiles on small knives.

I whittled some soft wood (Aspen) for about 15 minutes with the Calypso today, it would still shave above skin level afterwards.

That is one of the main reasons that some knives get praised for high edge retention, the makers just do an excellent job on the initial sharpening.

Even on a benchstone, I keep the pressure moderate.

Generally you want to keep the pressure to a minimum which produces aggressive cutting action because the higher the forces the more likely the edge will bend. After thinking about your comment recently I checked the no-name after regrinding and you can see a massive difference from the x-coarse DMT if you press very hard vs light. At maximal pressure there can be a deformation burr which is visible at about 0.2 mm wide it should have been obvious that this isn't a good idea in terms of trying to obtain a very sharp edge because none of that steel will form clean and the steel above it is likely highly stressed as well. Thanks for pointing that out.

-Cliff

 

[gud4u]

regarding honing pressure, some blade designs simply give you no choice but to either hone with uniform light pressure or zone-sharpen part of the edge.

For example, the Ronin blade - due to distal-tapered thin blade - simply flexes away from the stone for the forward 1/3 of the blade at high honing pressure. You can use high honing pressure on the first 2/3 of the blade, but the forward 1/3 of the blade will require zone-sharpening at low honing pressure for uniform edge quality over the full final edge bevel.