Using Only Steel Strops/Hones To Sharpen A DULL Knife

I have noticed with most any knife, after cutting up 1-2 chickens there are areas on the edge that have burrs. It feels like curled metal. My steeling rod must be one of those of low quality as it doesn't do much to straighten these burrs. I have had better success back honing it on a piece of hardwood. This straightens the burrs. But after doing this 3-4 times the edge becomes much
refined. Sure it will slice paper but not cloth. Is this method removing metal? DM
 
Hard to say, without observing it. If your steel isn't removing the dings then it's also probably not hard enough to be removing much, if any, metal.
 
David Martin said:
I have noticed with most any knife, after cutting up 1-2 chickens there are areas on the edge that have burrs. It feels like curled metal. My steeling rod must be one of those of low quality as it doesn't do much to straighten these burrs. I have had better success back honing it on a piece of hardwood. This straightens the burrs. But after doing this 3-4 times the edge becomes much
refined. Sure it will slice paper but not cloth. Is this method removing metal? DM
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If the burrs are rolling and then being straightened several times on the wood, it sounds as if they might be getting work-hardened in doing so. Some very ductile steels form tenacious & strong burrs that'll cut very well for a while, if they're kept aligned. I tend to believe this is what happens with my kitchen knives to some degree, when I use the polished steel repeatedly to maintain them. The edge will be extremely thin, sharp and durable for a while, until the back & forth bending eventually makes the metal weak & brittle. That sometimes takes a few weeks, if maintained only on the polished steel. Then, I'll start noticing the edge collapses very easily in use, which is my cue to take the blade back to a stone and regrind the edge back into strong steel.
 
I have thought that's whats happening. You use it, it bends/ folds. You straighten it, use it & it bends. After a few alignments it needs to be taken to a stone. I may try a degree or 2 more obtuse edge angle and see how this performs. Thanks, DM
 
David Martin said:
I have thought that's whats happening. You use it, it bends/ folds. You straighten it, use it & it bends. After a few alignments it needs to be taken to a stone. I may try a degree or 2 more obtuse edge angle and see how this performs. Thanks, DM
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I know this is silly, but the correct phrase is "less acute" unless you are going over 90' inclusive. .. just being AR, apologies.
 
David Martin said:
I have noticed with most any knife, after cutting up 1-2 chickens there are areas on the edge that have burrs. It feels like curled metal. My steeling rod must be one of those of low quality as it doesn't do much to straighten these burrs. I have had better success back honing it on a piece of hardwood. This straightens the burrs. But after doing this 3-4 times the edge becomes much
refined. Sure it will slice paper but not cloth. Is this method removing metal? DM
Click to expand...

If the edge is actually rolled, then this would be comparable to an "incorrectly" formed card scraper burr, which just breaks off with a couple of passes. As an example, see the upper part of the image:
scraper_05.jpg


I've tried "re-aligning" a variety of rolled edges with a variety of techniques, and apex only ever breaks off.
 
Todd, great pictures! My edge goes from a nice bevel w/ no burrs to burrs after some use. Probably looks like that ^. I can get a few alignments out of it before I'm forced to take it to the stone. An x fine diamond is just way to slow at removing these. Thanks, DM
 
Thanks about great discussion, advice and pictures. I have been thinking possibility to realign the highly polished edge with honing rod. Only problem is that my ceramic rod (grit maybe 1500) might make too big scratches to polished edge.

I found from Ebay 6mmX300MM glass stirring rods for laboratory usage with very low price.Do you know could these be used for that purpose and what those grit might be?
I guess those must be higher grit than my ceramic rod?

How ever after ToddS message I am quite confused now are the "steels" working because they realign the edge or are they working because those remove some metal after all.
 
Haikonen said:
Thanks about great discussion, advice and pictures. I have been thinking possibility to realign the highly polished edge with honing rod. Only problem is that my ceramic rod (grit maybe 1500) might make too big scratches to polished edge.

I found from Ebay 6mmX300MM glass stirring rods for laboratory usage with very low price.Do you know could these be used for that purpose and what those grit might be?
I guess those must be higher grit than my ceramic rod?

How ever after ToddS message I am quite confused now are the "steels" working because they realign the edge or are they working because those remove some metal after all.
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ToddS' tests with SEM evidence recapitulate what John Juranitch worked on back in 1977 for his article "Sharpening Secrets of a Pro," published in Popular Science magazine (magazines, pfft ;) )
The point of contact when steeling an edge at an angle just off the primary bevel is extremely small an allows exertion of a high amount of pressure with very little effort. This can result in plastic flow of the steel on the blade - squishing down and smoothing raised areas - but can also allow adhesion of the blade steel to the honing rod which results in it being stripped from the blade via adhesive wear. If you use your steel as most do, trying to "realign the edge" by holding it an an angle that would form a microbevel, you will succeed... at creating a microbevel! That isn't a bad thing, unless you (for some weird reason) really really really wanted to keep the angle you had previously. Note that ToddS' images show this to be on the scale of a few microns. If your edge was bending out of alignment on the scale of >10 microns, then the smooth hone may allow you to bend the wobbly bit back into alignment, smooth the face of it, and carve a new and smooth apex at a sturdier angle. As long as that new angle cuts the way you need it too, those are all "wins" :thumbsup:

EDIT to add: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galling
A wiki article on adhesive wear, "galling"
 
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In my own tinkering, glass rods or even the edge of a Pyrex baking pan work very well. I've even used a wavy textured piece of glass. Anything that concentrates pressure over a small area can work, although the microtexture matters.
Radial scratches in the rod will destroy the edge, while lengthwise scratches work to create a very smooth surface (image links to the earlier thread - https://bladeforums.com/threads/a-very-quick-and-close-look-at-steeling.956235/ have been mostly fixed).

Have had OK luck even on higher carbide steels, but the angle of the microbevel needs to be very slight or it will blow carbides out of the steel along the edge.

Realignment is probably possible, esp on lower RC steels is almost certainly a possibility. The danger is that you'll draw the edge out into a wire/burr if this is overdone. That's where the grooved steel comes in - much better at removing steel and leaving one with a clean edge to be worked along the apex.

Again, I've had much better luck using this approach on coarse to medium refined edges as the grind texture leaves the steel somewhere to flow under pressure. If the edge is already refined it tends to flow out into a wire. Taking an edge to a 6-8k or higher JIS and steeling it will almost always result in degraded edge quality. The improvement see in edges left with a little more grind texture can be remarkable, and repeatable for a handful of reconditionings before the edge draws out.
 
HeavyHanded said:
...Taking an edge to a 6-8k or higher JIS and steeling it will almost always result in degraded edge quality. ...
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This is consistent with what I've observed when steeling an already keen edge. The existing apex just gets rolled and embrittled without being cleanly removed. Steeling is most effective when the apex is blunted or worn so that a new apex can be formed from good steel below.
 
This is why I finish mine at 300 grit. This gives you some fudge room to move the burr back in alignment a couple of times before you notice it has become too fine. DM
 
I detest steels. I’ve seen so many knives turned into recurved blades by people only using steels for years. I sharpen on a flat diamond stone. If it cuts a tomato it’s sharp. It doesn’t need to shave hair. My dad could get blades scary sharp after the first two cuts his knife was the same as mine. I’m probably exaggerating but I’ve never seen the need to have a knife that sharp. I know I’m in the minority here.
 
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