Using vs Collecting vs Both

[betzner]

It's always interested me that many "absolutist" users are so strident about their committment to using and see no reason why anyone would pay large money for a knife that probably has a worse edge and less proper fit than a knife like a CPK - and is destined to sit in a safe or inside a display box rather than be used. I see it as a good discussion point, but may be wrong, in which case this thread dies a quick and natural death, even with a surprise ending.

Collecting for the most part is a 20th century phenom. Sure, there were some very fancy knives produced in the Gold Rush era in California mid 19th century, but in general, knives were users, period . They were purpose driven. Americans began to become more affluent after WWII. I can't say how and when knife collecting took off in popularity, but I understand why it did. It's a natural outgrowth of the user experience, but with only a small percentage of users taking up collecting.

Americans have always been oriented towards weapons. Take gun collecting, where the case is easily made for "Both". Almost every gun collector shoots, or did earlier in life. The collecting aspect of both knives and guns starts with the user experience. Without it, you don't find many who collect.

In the 1950's, knives were felt to be a taboo, as with the switchblade, which became federally banned. As population boomed and incomes rose, collecting eventually hit it's stride. Custom makers arose, engravers proliferated and, boom, here we are now.

BUT WHAT MANY STILL DO NOT REALIZE IS THAT COLLECTING IS ON A DOWNHILL TREND. What has changed is technology, metallurgy and YOU. Every generation causes change. With your generation came a delight for tactical knives, which has impacted "traditional" collecting to an extreme.
When I read comments with a negative tinge toward collecting, and absolutist user comments, I don't think negatively about them. Instead, my thoughts are drawn toward a GENERATION that's been saddled with the worst debt imaginable and every reason to consider the knife a tool and dumb to pay good money for non-essential shi*. I know I'm not the only old f*ck who frequents here, but realize the majority are YOU. I hope things turn around for collecting, because it could mean things have taken a turn for the better for YOU.

Sooo, I am in the BOTH category. Lotsa use of knives earlier in life (including having them used on me), then collecting, now both. But you see me here now, not in the customs subforum. As I finish, I wonder how useful for discussion this topic is now, but put it out there anyway. Oh, I truly love how a new generation has become wrapped up in the metallurgy of it all. Us old f*cks never gave a sh*t. It's great to see.

 

[ExtraBaconPlease]

Is this another "the new generation sucks, ours was so much better" comment or am I misreading?

I don't understand the point of this thread or what you are asking, if anything.

 

[betzner]

Is this another "the new generation sucks, ours was so much better" comment or am I misreading?

I don't understand the point of this thread or what you are asking, if anything.

Not at all. More of a "I feel ya" statement. Read it again with that in mind and maybe you will have a different perception.

 

[TRfromMT]

Wonderful discussion topic, Bob.

I have to admit, as much as my limited budget allows, I am a collector more than a user. I buy almost exclusively user-grade knives as and when I can afford them. I admire a well crafted and executed user-grade knife as well as any artistic piece. I am a machinist/engineer/woodworker at heart, and appreciate simple craftsmanship. But there is a twinge of regret that I don't get to actually use my knives like they were built to be used. They mostly sit in a safe because family/work/life commitments preclude me from being the outdoorsman I would really like to be. I'm not giving in to this reality completely, so I keep my collection of mostly unused knives. I also have a fine English setter I got for bird hunting that hasn't seen the field in 3 years. He's a hell of a good dog all the same. I do draw the limit at a light chopper, for example. Even in my wildest dreams I'll never need one.

I knew this when I started pursuing this knife hobby. I specifically chose to focus on knife handles as a way to hopefully make my hobby cash-neutral. I was asked recently how many knives I own, and I was surprised to see I had picked up 15 or 16 blade last year on a cash-neutral basis. Somehow this aspect of my hobby offsets the regret that I can't seem to actually use them.

I'll never begrudge anyone spending a significant amount of money on this hobby, lest it be held against me. Let the innocent among you cast the first stone...

 

[Nathan the Machinist]

^ Bacon, I just can't see how you'd have read that from the OP. No, there's nothing condescending there, just plain speak from an old guy that's been around the block a few times. This is a good thread subject. :thumbup:

 

[Lapedog]

No he is saying that people of my generation and younger are biting a bullet that has been passed down by generations before us that eventually wouldnhave to be bit. Thank you for your sympathy. They say that people in my generation make 50% less than our parents and grandparents when you factor in inflation.

*Rant on*
In my city housing prices have gone up as much as 20% in a year. Which means no one my age can afford to buy a house. However those who bought houses before in my parents generation when prices were more reasonable get richer and richer as their property value soars. There are few good jobs because my parents generation believed everone's special kid should be a doctor or lawyer and attend university at a minimum. Now this makes a bachleor degree basically only as useful as a high school degree once was. Not helping is the "follow your dreams" nonsense which has created a generation of students with worthless degrees; there just aren't enough jobs for a political sci english major. The universities where I am are money making ventures, filled with asian students who don't speak any english who pass every year because they pay 9x what the local students pay. (Not racist, my girlfriends have all been asian and I have a deep love and respect for their culture; however I learned to read alot of korean and alot of phrases...if I moved there I would have commited to becoming fluent)

Infact one yeat at school the teacher gave me two chinese group members and we were a group for the whole year. It was set groups. Neither of them spoke a word of english. The teacher asked them a business question once about economics to which my parntner answered "Wednesday." The teacher never asked that student a single question for the rest of the year. Here's the kicker, the teacher says to me since we are a group and work together on all projects if my parnters failed then I failed. The situation was the same or simmilar at 1 University and 2 colleges I attended all of which I dropped out and never finished college until I attended private college. (Thank god)
*rant off*

I am lucky my family is fairly well off or Indon't know what I would do. A small percentage of my generation is successful, these are the ones with connections and families who fostered their growth.

 

[betzner]

Hey Lapedog, my intent when I started was to see if "user vs collector" topic would be useful for discussion, with a very short comment on one major reason for the change in collector dynamics being generational tastes. But when I begin to discuss anything generational, I've gotta hold my comments to a minimum because it will always become a rant with exactly the same content, and more, as yours.

Thanks for expressing, and hope others we see the user vs collector topic as useful.

 

[ExtraBaconPlease]

Not at all. More of a "I feel ya" statement. Read it again with that in mind and maybe you will have a different perception.

^ Bacon, I just can't see how you'd have read that from the OP. No, there's nothing condescending there, just plain speak from an old guy that's been around the block a few times. This is a good thread subject. :thumbup:

No he is saying that people of my generation and younger are biting a bullet that has been passed down by generations before us that eventually wouldnhave to be bit. Thank you for your sympathy. They say that people in my generation make 50% less than our parents and grandparents when you factor in inflation.

Sorry, betzner, I clearly misread/misinterpreted. My bad. I understand what you're saying now.

As Lapedog makes some interesting points about wealth and past generations having a better chance at making it big, I completely agree. Not to say there aren't opportunities now, some might argue more than ever but I believe things were much easier a few years ago.

Take my grandparent for example. They came to Australia from Lebanon when the grandpa was 19 and my grandmother, 13. Neither spoke a word of English or had a dollar in their pockets. They didn't have much of a business sense or a master plan, but through pure hard work, they were able to comfortably raise 6 kids, currently own 3 nice houses and have money in the bank. They aren't the type to be stingy with their money either. I just don't see how you could mimic what they did today and be half as successful.

Today, I feel we have to work a lot harder (or more hours) for a lot less. I'm fortunate enough to be able to buy some pretty expensive blades for my age (I'm 20) but I work for them. I think it's that simple, hard work.

Cheers :thumbup:

 

[betzner]

Sorry, betzner, I clearly misread/misinterpreted. My bad. I understand what you're saying now.

As Lapedog makes some interesting points about wealth and past generations having a better chance at making it big, I completely agree. Not to say there aren't opportunities now, some might argue more than ever but I believe things were much easier a few years ago.

Take my grandparent for example. They came to Australia from Lebanon when the grandpa was 19 and my grandmother, 13. Neither spoke a word of English or had a dollar in their pockets. They worked didn't have much of a business sense or a master plan, but through pure hard work, they were able to comfortably raise 6 kids, currently own 3 nice houses and have money in the bank. They aren't the type to be stingy with their money either.

Today, I feel we have to work a lot harder (or more hours) for a lot less. I'm fortunate enough to be able to buy some pretty expensive blades for my age (I'm 20) but I work for them. I think it's that simple, hard work.

Cheers :thumbup:

ind
Hey, no problem. I formed my opinion of you long ago when you apologized for something and eloquently expressed the difficulties with text, in that voice intonation, speech pattern, etc can't be interpreted, only the text. And because of that, I kinda expected an apology would follow, not because I thought I deserved it, but because I had already formed my positive opinion of you. Hey, all is cool.


EDIT: And I won't hold it against you 'cause you're from 'Strailia, mate:thumbup:

 

[Lapedog]

Sorry, my points were meant to be taken as an explanation for why my generation is not able to or inclined to collect as much. I am sure deep down many would like to. Perhaps the defensiveness in "I am a user, I don't understand collectors" is abit of sour grapes. Simmilar to how the husband driving his economical Honda sees a passing Ferrari and looks to his wife and says "Now that's just wasteful!" Furthermore the guy in the Ferrari gets a phone call from his employer to say he'll be taking his private jet to the Bahamas for the week, the guy in the Ferrari goes "How distasteful."

I find it hard to believe a knife enthusiast doesn't see the new blades coming out and want them. Howeved he perhaps to defend his own opinion of himself goes "well I only need user knives." Thing is he is right, we do only need user knives, collection demands some degree of affluence or leads to financial problems.

As a reversal I too look at my collection of mostly tactical folders and fixed blade SD knives, and even my more utilitarian knives and think its sad a situation won't come up where I get to use most of these. Thus maybe explaining the obsession with many collectors in SHTF scenarios and zombie apocolypses. A way to justify a collection.

That's what I am trying to say. I didn't mean to try and derail the thread at all. I am a user and a collector, in the city I find myself wishing there was more chance to use. However I respect people on both sides of the user collector equation. I think it's great there are so many people in the knife hobby, whatever their motivations.

 

[evltcat]

I've been fascinated by knives and swords for as long as I can remember.
I love and own a few good firearms, but I always end up back with a pile of sticky, pokey bits surrounding me.

Every knife I own is open to be used if the need or want is there in my mind. I have a few artistic daggers and swords from my SCA days (gotta take some pix, they're Yeager's and Kirby's for you SCA folks) that will probably never be used, but generally I don't specifically buy a blade as a work of art or collectable only piece. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the craftsmanship and beauty of the art knife/dagger/sword, and I enjoy looking at their sheer beauty. Its just not my thing, because I just couldn't bring myself to use (and possibly destroy) a work of art like that.

Now that said, I do have more knives than any human could ever use in their lifetime, and multiple versions of some knives and swords with different finishes and steels, so in that respect I have a collection. Some have been used, a lot haven't, but any can.

 

[betzner]

Sorry, my points were meant to be taken as an explanation for why my generation is not able to or inclined to collect as much. I am sure deep down many would like to. Perhaps the defensiveness in "I am a user, I don't understand collectors" is abit of sour grapes. Simmilar to how the husband driving his economical Honda sees a passing Ferrari and looks to his wife and says "Now that's just wasteful!" Furthermore the guy in the Ferrari gets a phone call from his employer to say he'll be taking his private jet to the Bahamas for the week, the guy in the Ferrari goes "How distasteful."

I find it hard to believe a knife enthusiast doesn't see the new blades coming out and want them. Howeved he perhaps to defend his own opinion of himself goes "well I only need user knives." Thing is he is right, we do only need user knives, collection demands some degree of affluence or leads to financial problems.

As a reversal I too look at my collection of mostly tactical folders and fixed blade SD knives, and even my more utilitarian knives and think its sad a situation won't come up where I get to use most of these. Thus maybe explaining the obsession with many collectors in SHTF scenarios and zombie apocolypses. A way to justify a collection.

That's what I am trying to say. I didn't mean to try and derail the thread at all. I am a user and a collector, in the city I find myself wishing there was more chance to use. However I respect people on both sides of the user collector equation. I think it's great there are so many people in the knife hobby, whatever their motivations.

These comments of yours above are EXACTLY what I was attempting to connote in my opener, hoping the reader would come to that conclusion/understanding. I just didn't want to write a book in the opener, so am gratified you went further and added these comments. Precisely one of the main points, though I didn't go deeply into it.

Thanks a bunch, and there's no sorry about it!

 

[Georgecatl]

I would definitely line up in the Both column.
I started out as a user with an avid love of the outdoors, hunting, & fishing. I have a couple mountain parcels, on one I built a hunting cabin. So over the years I accumulated an array of tools to survive and enjoy my time off the grid.
Additionally, I'm a "Baby Boomer" that grew up in central Florida........Pre-Disney, when Citrus was king. As a child in the 50's, I would tag along to my Father's groves which were located off OBT (Orange Blossom Trail....US441). On one trip during picking season, my uncle stopped at another grove along OBT that had a sign at the end of the driveway...."Randall Made Knives". He bought me a small knife which I used to slice a few oranges...........and by the end of the day......Lost it
We Baby Boomers also grew up in the era of muscle cars and I, like many, remember the hot car we had or wanted during those days. So like many who have tried to turn back time by finding that once beloved muscle car, I also had an awakening during my late 30's when a hunting buddy of mine proudly pulled out his Randall that had been passed down from his Father. Until that point I had never realized the reverence placed on Randall Made Knives. That's when the "collecting" started.
I have a few Randall's which led me to Ruanas which started me on Behrings and then on to Busse.............and then I found Blade Show and it just got stupid.
I think of a true collector as one who finds his/her passion and concentrates their efforts in a focused discipline. I on the other hand, consider myself more of an accumulator. I get on kicks, folders one week ,fixed blades the next. I have some I use but most are in safes and displays. I rarely sell anything, I've never traded..................I'm sick

 

[heat_treat]

Thank you for starting this topic. I have had lots of ideas floating around for awhile but reading through these various posts is the first time I have stopped to let them coalesce.

I agree that what we are seeing is at least partly generational. After decades of excess, an environment in peril, debt so large it really can't be conceived, and the realization that even though we have everything, we always seem to "need" more, I think a lot of the younger folks are "waking" up. See the growing popularity of the minimalist lifestyle, small houses, etc.. They are realizing their parent's idea of success may need some reexamining. In this world, collecting makes little sense. Not only do you need money to acquire and maintain the collection but you need space for the collection which is in itself a "waste". You certainly aren't going to fit many non-essentials in your small house and that is the point of a small house. Whether this change in mindset is the result of "enlightenment" or necessity is a topic for another discussion.

I have seen animosity towards collecting and/or collectors when the item collected is both usable and in short supply, like CPK knives at this time. There can be ill will towards those that have many of whatever, stored or on display, that will never be used while others have none, even though they know they would actually use the item. In those circumstances collections can seem useless and even "greedy". But, that argument is as old as Man. There have always been some with and some without and the reasons for collecting are varied.

I do see collecting becoming less popular and have mixed feelings about it. I think anything that contributes to a smaller footprint for each individual is a good thing. It is obvious we cannot sustain our current consumption and something has to give. But it saddens me to think of all the creative output that may never be preserved for future generations if no one cares to collect it.

 

[betzner]

Damn, this has already turned out to be a better thread than I thought it might. One comment I should make is that I generally back out and remain silent in threads I start, and so far, this has been an exception.

George, I relate to your comment "I think of a true collector as one who finds his/her passion and concentrates their efforts in a focused discipline". Could not agree more. It's what I try to pass on in some collector mentoring I do.rre

heat _treat, this is what I hoped would pop up as an issue, because stuff like this can be of benefit through discussion. There have been SO MANY threads on user vs collector over the years in Customs and none get to these points. They are only interested in "where are we today in collecting", or "Am I seeing a golden renaissance in collecting" or others that do not address fundamental issues that lie beneath the surface.

Thanks

 

[Lorien]

geez, what a great topic- I encourage you to repost this in C&H, Bob.

for my part, it's pretty obvious that much of the enjoyment I get from knives is using them for stuff. That's what leads me along when I'm designing these things

that being said, I do have some knives- not many- that I won't use. For me, owning Art Knives is just too big a responsibility. For example, I had this amazing piece by John White, that really belongs in a collection of his work stewarded over by someone who enjoys taking care of them. Well, I sold it. The burden of responsibility was too much for me, I didn't want to be responsible for ensuring it would remain pristine- as it should remain in perpetuity

 

[TRfromMT]

I agree with heat-treat, and find a lot to think about in his post, agreeing with much of it.

Having said that, I disagree with this: ...But it saddens me to think of all the creative output that may never be preserved for future generations if no one cares to collect it."


The quality of knives Nathan produces need little preserving. They'll last for a million years

 

[betzner]

geez, what a great topic- I encourage you to repost this in C&H, Bob.

for my part, it's pretty obvious that much of the enjoyment I get from knives is using them for stuff. That's what leads me along when I'm designing these things

that being said, I do have some knives- not many- that I won't use. For me, owning Art Knives is just too big a responsibility. For example, I had this amazing piece by John White, that really belongs in a collection of his work stewarded over by someone who enjoys taking care of them. Well, I sold it. The burden of responsibility was too much for me, I didn't want to be responsible for ensuring it would remain pristine- as it should remain in perpetuity

Lorien old buddy, I'll pass on your initial suggestion about putting this thread on C&H. While it's changed, I just don't think it is nearly the right audience that our CPK forum can be/already is for the subject. The guys here are getting it. I think over there, it might be much more superficially treated - so respectfully pass (insert handle comment).

Jerry Fisk and i were in some conversation somewhere once and he went to great lengths to voice his feelings about how important it was for the future that my Warenskis be held together/curated/stewarded. Fortunately, for me it's love and not a burden. But I understand what you mean about the White as the same applies.

 

[Lorien]

didn't get a chance to read your previous post, Bob, regarding C&H before I posted my thoughts. I hear ya brother!

 

[Georgecatl]

George, I relate to your comment "I think of a true collector as one who finds his/her passion and concentrates their efforts in a focused discipline". Could not agree more. It's what I try to pass on in some collector mentoring I do.rre

I'd love to sit down and talk one day. Maybe Blade17. I may need an intervention