Since we apparently know that the whole tactical trend is a bunch of bull, why are companies still promoting it? Somebody, or more likely lots of somebodies, are buying these things. I can honestly say that I have never even considered buying one, as I dismiss anything I see as targeted to juvenile military fantasies as a matter ot routine. So since we obviously know better, who is buying them?
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Utility Vs Tactical
- Thread starter PryBry
- Start date
Hello Not2sharp,
I am not sure it would be a good idea to change the name of a knife from "tactical" to "practical". There is a shooting sport called "practical shooting", which tests shooting skills in self-defense senarios. Calling a knife "practical" could still imply "cutting people".
I would favor calling such knives "camping knives" or "woodsman's knives". This would imply that the knife was made for cutting trees and brush, or perhaps fending off a bear attack. Cold Steel made a wise decision in calling their large bowie the "Trailmaster". The knife is designed primarily as a fighter, but there is no suggestion of this in the name.
I am not sure it would be a good idea to change the name of a knife from "tactical" to "practical". There is a shooting sport called "practical shooting", which tests shooting skills in self-defense senarios. Calling a knife "practical" could still imply "cutting people".
I would favor calling such knives "camping knives" or "woodsman's knives". This would imply that the knife was made for cutting trees and brush, or perhaps fending off a bear attack. Cold Steel made a wise decision in calling their large bowie the "Trailmaster". The knife is designed primarily as a fighter, but there is no suggestion of this in the name.
Here is a selection from my stash of knives...
And how I classify each...
Kershaw Boa Multi-color handle with serated blade = Utility
Buck CrossLoc Double Blade = Untility
CRKT Ryan Model 7 plain blade = Tactical
CR Mountaineer I = Tactical
Ontario SP8 = Utility
Well? On target? I can go either way on the Model 7...
And how I classify each...
Kershaw Boa Multi-color handle with serated blade = Utility
Buck CrossLoc Double Blade = Untility
CRKT Ryan Model 7 plain blade = Tactical
CR Mountaineer I = Tactical
Ontario SP8 = Utility
Well? On target? I can go either way on the Model 7...
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In my humble opinion the term "tactical knife" should mean the knife intended for wide range of cutting tasks, including pretty hard ones, probably including fight if required. However this term is quite frequently abused by knife makers and manufacturers for advertising purposes, first of all to cause association with extraordinarily power and reliability for hard use and fight.
Pretty odd, but the knife fight is the thing what is the least common among normal people (counting also soldiers, LEO's and spec operators) but the most discussed! Perhaps this causes makers and manufacturers to use this phenomenon for advertising purposes...
And vice verso. The most of Fällkniven models (A1, S1, F1, H1) can perform the hardest cutting chores, can take a lot of abuse and also can be used as a weapon. But the manufacturer have never claimed them as "tactical"...
Well, terminology remains terminology no matter how it is used or abused, so I'll explain mine. For me the knife can be called "tactical" if the user can apply all his power and - if required - his weight for cutting without care about knife reliability. So the tactical is somewhat stronger "utility", without clear border indeed.
Pretty odd, but the knife fight is the thing what is the least common among normal people (counting also soldiers, LEO's and spec operators) but the most discussed! Perhaps this causes makers and manufacturers to use this phenomenon for advertising purposes...
And vice verso. The most of Fällkniven models (A1, S1, F1, H1) can perform the hardest cutting chores, can take a lot of abuse and also can be used as a weapon. But the manufacturer have never claimed them as "tactical"...
Well, terminology remains terminology no matter how it is used or abused, so I'll explain mine. For me the knife can be called "tactical" if the user can apply all his power and - if required - his weight for cutting without care about knife reliability. So the tactical is somewhat stronger "utility", without clear border indeed.
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It does seem reasonable to say that tactical and heavy-duty are pretty much synonymous. For example, I would say that most, if not all, of the Fallkniven line make excellent tactical knives. The fact of the matter is, though, that the term tactical does have useful meaning to a lot of people, even if it is a little bit broadly defined. It is not just a hyperbolic marketing term.
Brian Jones
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In fact, tactical was originally used as way to describe early military knife handles. They used flypaper on the outside of the leather washers to keep the knife in the hand better, hence making it "tacky." It also was good to catch a few flies for lunch in a survival situation. Hope that settles this argument.
not2sharp
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We are buying them. But, I don't think most of us buy them with an intent to fight anyone. We buy them because most of these knives feature comfortable easy to use sturdy designs with sturdy locks and good blade steels.
The advertising is a little like watching a beer commercial. Just buy a case of Bud and your dwelling will immediately fill with a harem of hot scantly clad women. Truth in advertising? Hardly (at least not in my neck of the woods), I mean we are talking Bud here.
We know it's a joke, but they get our attention anyway. Unfortunately, the "tactical knives" theme may be getting us a little too much unwanted attention, and creating more than a few unnecessary problems. That's why we should start to fade it out. There is noting sacred about the word "tactical". During the 80s the emphasis was on "survival" and before then we had "bowies". We should work on finding another word or theme to promote our hobby. We are about due for a change anyway. "Tactical" was to the 90s what "survival" was to the 80s lets' come up with a fresh theme for the 21st Century.
Call them "Robust" knives, and position them as knives designed to hold up as for as long as it takes. Start shifting the focus to frame, pivot, blade, and lock strength; rather than on fighting and speed of deployment. That is the real direction that we have been moving in. The next generation of knives will feature convex edge grinds, and we will probably see sharpening systems developed specifically to maintain these knives.
not2sharp
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With people in this country still happily and legally buying millions of handguns, the most singular of purpose of tactical objects, I think the stigma you ascribe to buying a knife for self-defense is a little bit imaginary. And frankly, I don't think calling them buxom, full-figured knives will matter a hoot. 
Most of the 100 or so knives I own were purchased with their utility for self-defense very much in mind. And more than a few of them are simply designed specifically with the requirements of close quarters fighting in mind.
Show me another word that means a utility/self-defense knife to almost any knife enthusiast, and I will switch to it. But by definition, any word for a knife that contains the weapon connotation would simply have the same social stigma transferred to it. It is the notion of a knife as a weapon that you are trying to eliminate, and that, I am afraid, is impossible.
Most of the 100 or so knives I own were purchased with their utility for self-defense very much in mind. And more than a few of them are simply designed specifically with the requirements of close quarters fighting in mind.
Show me another word that means a utility/self-defense knife to almost any knife enthusiast, and I will switch to it. But by definition, any word for a knife that contains the weapon connotation would simply have the same social stigma transferred to it. It is the notion of a knife as a weapon that you are trying to eliminate, and that, I am afraid, is impossible.
Brian Jones
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W.T.
LOL!
~B.
LOL!
~B.
Hello Mr. Harvey,
I agree that one cannot eliminate the weapon connotation of a knife. However, the problem we have is that liberal lawyers and prosecutors will try to turn the tables on a crime victim, by alleging that the victim who defended himself with a gun or knife was a "Rambo" out looking for a fight, as evidenced by the fact that he was carrying a weapon designed and marketed for the purpose of killing people.
I think what can be eliminated are knife names which indicate mortal combat as the primary or sole usage of a particular knife. Therefore, if you had to defend yourself from a lawsuit or prosecution for having used a knife in self-defense, you would be far better off if the knife you had used was called a "Trailmaster" instead of a "Battle Mistress". How would you like to try convincing a jury that you bought a "Battle Mistress" only for clearing trails in the woods?
I agree that one cannot eliminate the weapon connotation of a knife. However, the problem we have is that liberal lawyers and prosecutors will try to turn the tables on a crime victim, by alleging that the victim who defended himself with a gun or knife was a "Rambo" out looking for a fight, as evidenced by the fact that he was carrying a weapon designed and marketed for the purpose of killing people.
I think what can be eliminated are knife names which indicate mortal combat as the primary or sole usage of a particular knife. Therefore, if you had to defend yourself from a lawsuit or prosecution for having used a knife in self-defense, you would be far better off if the knife you had used was called a "Trailmaster" instead of a "Battle Mistress". How would you like to try convincing a jury that you bought a "Battle Mistress" only for clearing trails in the woods?
Oops. I mean, I know that we as knife enthusiasts are buying them, the point I was trying to make would be better put as "Who is buying them because they are 'scary looking' or 'military style'". Seems to me that the last thing we need for our hobby is a bunch of teenagers or wanabe commandoes who don't know any better running around with big black blades that are adverised as weapons and labeled as "tactical knives".
To me, calling a wicked looking knife something like Skullcracker or The Executioner is the same as a car manufacturer selling a massive SUV with a name like "Coupe Killer".
Now that I think of it, the SUV craze and the tactical fad have a lot in common. In both cases, there are only a few people who actually need the full capabilities of the product, be they outdoorsmen or military personnel. In both cases the majority of people who purchace them do not use even a fraction of these capabilities, nor do they know how to use it properly. And (most importantly) in both cases the people who do have a genuine need for these products take the hit when somebody who isn't responsible drives a Suburban through a shopping mall or kills their neighbor with a "mean looking" knife.
I believe somebody gave the example of a CS Trailmaster. Perfect example of my point, it's just about as tactical as anything else out there, but is marketed as a outdoors tool. That is what we need to do, show sheeple that knives are tools; just like hammers, and screwdrivers, and those other funny pointy cutting things in their kitchen drawer.
It is not about function, it is a discussion of image. Regardless of whether you call a knife design tactical, utility, or something else; the function will not change. It will cut. Period. Since a name or an image will not result in a superior product, why choose an image that will result in bad press?
To me, calling a wicked looking knife something like Skullcracker or The Executioner is the same as a car manufacturer selling a massive SUV with a name like "Coupe Killer".
Now that I think of it, the SUV craze and the tactical fad have a lot in common. In both cases, there are only a few people who actually need the full capabilities of the product, be they outdoorsmen or military personnel. In both cases the majority of people who purchace them do not use even a fraction of these capabilities, nor do they know how to use it properly. And (most importantly) in both cases the people who do have a genuine need for these products take the hit when somebody who isn't responsible drives a Suburban through a shopping mall or kills their neighbor with a "mean looking" knife.
I believe somebody gave the example of a CS Trailmaster. Perfect example of my point, it's just about as tactical as anything else out there, but is marketed as a outdoors tool. That is what we need to do, show sheeple that knives are tools; just like hammers, and screwdrivers, and those other funny pointy cutting things in their kitchen drawer.
It is not about function, it is a discussion of image. Regardless of whether you call a knife design tactical, utility, or something else; the function will not change. It will cut. Period. Since a name or an image will not result in a superior product, why choose an image that will result in bad press?
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There has never been a winner in the tactical name debate, and I don't wish to get drifted into it any farther than saying I sit on the it don't matter a hoot side of the room. Bad press happens. The sheeple reporter will use his own terms to evoke fear and loathing and sell ad space and wouldn't know a tactical knife from his own elbow.
The point under discussion is that there is a difference between a utility knife and a tactical knife, and the term "tactical" is useful and meaningfully used by almost everybody who is familiar with knives, particularly by those of us interested in the tactical use of knives.
The point under discussion is that there is a difference between a utility knife and a tactical knife, and the term "tactical" is useful and meaningfully used by almost everybody who is familiar with knives, particularly by those of us interested in the tactical use of knives.
not2sharp
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It probably just me but I just don't see it that way. If we threw up the names of 20 popular knives and asked everyone to catagorize them as either "tatical" or "utility" we would probably be all over the place. Were the Mark II and the Q225 fighting knives? Very few appear to have been used to injure people. Issued combat knives as a rule are very utilitarian, although as basic issued equipment, they fulfill a tactical need. About the only knife produced that is exclusively designed to rend flesh is the kitchen steak knife.
Does that make the kitchen steak knife a fighting knife? We can spin this any way we want to. But there is less genuine distinction between a tactical knife and a non-tactical knife than there was between those evil civilian assault rifles and their legitimate sporting counterparts. Mostly, black stock bad, and brown stock good.
Actually, if the need ever arose to defend myself with a knife I would hope to have a good steak knife on my person. Not only would it be light and fast, and have good penetration due to the thin flexible blade; but, when asked, I can always say I had taken the knife along to core my apple (which of course would be in my other pocket). Any knife can be used for self defense, and some work better than others some of the time, usually, they are the same knives that provide good utility.
What are desirable tactical traits:
1) Good solid design
2) Well balanced
3) Secure grip
4) Strong blade
5) Able to cut and stab
6) Portable
7) Easy to deploy
Now which of these traits would you not want in a good utility knife?
n2s
off to get my lethal skullcrushing tactical hammer to drive a nail and hang a picture.
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N2s - good point point.
I have done some checking and I haven't come across any legal issues where someones freedom was hanging in the balance because their knife was named "DeathBringer". While I personally have never liked the idea of the wild names, they are names and the perception of the knife as a weapon has little to do with it's name. Case in point, the article about the U.S. Mint Coin knife calls this little novelty knife a weapon several times. Watch the the media boxcutters are now weapons. Granted this is in a large part due to 9-11, but it was happening prior to that in schools where kids Boy Scout knives were being called weapons and the kids suspended.
I see this topic spring up a lot here and I wonder what each of us is doing to try and educate the general public about knives. While I haven't been active recently, I can say I managed to enlighten a local LEO about knives. She thought they were all weapons, end of story. She is now a fan of knives and is starting a small collection. She still has respect for knives as a weapon, but she doesn't assume anyone carrying a knife is carrying it as a weapon. So now, if you get pulled over by her for speeding and you have to get out of your car for some reason, she won't arrest for having a knife clipped to your pocket.
I have done some checking and I haven't come across any legal issues where someones freedom was hanging in the balance because their knife was named "DeathBringer". While I personally have never liked the idea of the wild names, they are names and the perception of the knife as a weapon has little to do with it's name. Case in point, the article about the U.S. Mint Coin knife calls this little novelty knife a weapon several times. Watch the the media boxcutters are now weapons. Granted this is in a large part due to 9-11, but it was happening prior to that in schools where kids Boy Scout knives were being called weapons and the kids suspended.
I see this topic spring up a lot here and I wonder what each of us is doing to try and educate the general public about knives. While I haven't been active recently, I can say I managed to enlighten a local LEO about knives. She thought they were all weapons, end of story. She is now a fan of knives and is starting a small collection. She still has respect for knives as a weapon, but she doesn't assume anyone carrying a knife is carrying it as a weapon. So now, if you get pulled over by her for speeding and you have to get out of your car for some reason, she won't arrest for having a knife clipped to your pocket.
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....and always drifting between "marketing" lingo.., performance tests.., etc.., etc.
BTW.., "Not2Sharp".., right on the money when you aren't entertaining with "just fun" comments. Really fun posts! You write extremely well!
Put a Forschner boning knife in the hands of a trained knife fighter/martial artist.., and you have a "Tactical Knife" ~~~> the rest is fun.., but also just semantics.
I opened a 1/8" cardboard box today with my Jerry Hossom "Narc"! Wow.., what a knife!! <~~~ REALLY! I also hope it's the only thing I ever have to do with it other than send it to Jerry to tune up a little. Ya just never know!
I want all the "mean guy" knives for Christmas.., but my girlfriend is "tactically" aware enough to disembowel me bare-handed if I attempt such greed.
Anyway..., fun posts as always.., and let's all hope our flesh-cutters are always the $14.95 kind that slide through a nice steak like it was meatloaf!! The other stuff is not fun...
"Hunters seek what they [WANT].., Seekers hunt what they [NEED]"
BTW.., "Not2Sharp".., right on the money when you aren't entertaining with "just fun" comments. Really fun posts! You write extremely well!
Put a Forschner boning knife in the hands of a trained knife fighter/martial artist.., and you have a "Tactical Knife" ~~~> the rest is fun.., but also just semantics.
I opened a 1/8" cardboard box today with my Jerry Hossom "Narc"! Wow.., what a knife!! <~~~ REALLY! I also hope it's the only thing I ever have to do with it other than send it to Jerry to tune up a little. Ya just never know!
I want all the "mean guy" knives for Christmas.., but my girlfriend is "tactically" aware enough to disembowel me bare-handed if I attempt such greed.
Anyway..., fun posts as always.., and let's all hope our flesh-cutters are always the $14.95 kind that slide through a nice steak like it was meatloaf!! The other stuff is not fun...
"Hunters seek what they [WANT].., Seekers hunt what they [NEED]"
Hello, Dirk. This is interesting. I am sure I have read statements elsewhere that a strategy used by certain lawyers and prosecutors is to villify a victim who defended himself or herself by claiming the person was looking for a fight, as evidenced by the type of weapon used. What I have heard personally from an Atlanta attorney is that prosecutors in that city will use this tactic if a gun used in self-defense is a military type or of large caliber. It stands to reason that the same strategy would be used if a knife was the weapon.
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W.T. - No doubt that the strategy exists. It has been used with firearms. While I am no legal expert and I have not looked extensively, it seems a relatively rare strategy even with firearms. What I have learned around central Ohio in regards to knives being classified under CCW charge is that the vast majority of the time it gets dropped. LEO's usually use it because they know the person they are dealing with is a real BG and they want to do something to cause him/her grief or the person they are charging with the knife CCW may not be a BG per se, but they caused the LEO some kind of grief and the LEO reciprocates by bringing the person in for a short stay.
In either firearms or knives, it still comes down to what the public knows of this things. The general public only knows what the media says. If that is the only information they are getting, than the name or look of a knife or gun will only be "icing on the cake" when it comes to villifying them. If we work to try and get people the correct information on these things, in theory, the perception will change and it will become even more difficult for a prosecutor to try to condemn someone for using their evil looking, military assault weapon or their Deathbringer tactical knife in self defense.
In either firearms or knives, it still comes down to what the public knows of this things. The general public only knows what the media says. If that is the only information they are getting, than the name or look of a knife or gun will only be "icing on the cake" when it comes to villifying them. If we work to try and get people the correct information on these things, in theory, the perception will change and it will become even more difficult for a prosecutor to try to condemn someone for using their evil looking, military assault weapon or their Deathbringer tactical knife in self defense.
As an aside, I know 4 guys who have, each, been in several knife-fights....one carries a box-cutter, the rest, a slip-joint. I've sharpened the Uncle Henry Muscrat for the one ole boy who used it to kill a man in a bar-fight (got off on self-defense). So, I guess that knife is a "Tactical Muscrat". Anyway, of the several knives I own/have owned that were marketed as "tactical", I think only one of them fits my definition of such: my serrated Civilian - not really handy for many utility chores, so it stays in its' pouch. I just like quality knives I can use, and if some people call them "tactical", that's fine. They're still "utility" knives, to me.
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I have done my best to describe the differences between a pure utility knife and a pure tactical knife in this thread already. Suffice it to say that my 4" 10V hunter with a .1" thick blade, stick tang, and antler handle is a utility knife, while my 3.5" 10V Simonich Cetan, with a full tang 3/16" blade is tactical. But I think you are aruing with me for the sake of arguing. There are a lot of utility knives that can be very tactical and visa versa; but I see that you do have your own idea of what the traits of a tactical knife are, which proves my point.
We all despise slick advertising, but in this environment - a gathering of knife enthusiasts - the term "tactical" is meaningful. You may not like using it, but that is a personal preference. The originator of this thread asked what the difference is between a utility knife and a tactical knife. To tell him there is none is simply misleading.