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Valiant Golok : intial impressions, mainly descriptive
- Thread starter Cliff Stamp
- Start date
Yeah, right. More like force yourself not to go running in search of an alder thicket.
That Naga is impressive, JM. Beoram likes his very much, too.
The Sumbawa is gorgeous. It's not as straight as I thought. Please let us know how it does, Jimbo.
That horn golok looks reminiscent of the Kelapa. Is it the same Golok Horn on Wandi's site? Nice wide blade. I can pass on all of the carving, though.
I have about another 400 square feet of overgrowth to clear, JM. I'll save a portion of it for the Maremu and let you know what I think.
And yes, JM, they are addictive.
S.
Actually the Sumbawa is absolutely straight - the curving tip is the back of the blade. As expected it goes through alders of arm size in short order. It's actually likely too much blade weight for extended use - I'm well over 200lb in shape from hauling wood - so unless you work out every day.. Despite being impressed with what it would do - I haven't scratched the surface with this blade. With a really good honing and polish job it's bound to be amazing.
What this is telling me is that 'Wandi is on the right track with the weight range of survival goloks. From using all three sizes I'd thought that they were too close to see much difference. I guess that idea has to do with my size. It's very important for safety not to be over-bladed, so for people of regular size the weight range makes a lot of sense in matching up a blade. I'd still like to see an additional XL size - but only another 2" in length and a few ounces more. That of course would be more for work and trail clearing: the small is entirely adequate for survival purposes, both in terms of cutting poles and chopping seasoned wood for firewood.
The big surprise was the horn golok small. I spent about an hour and a half straightening everything out with a belt grinder. The edge is now one continuous curve with about as perfect an edge and bevel as I am capable of or could wish for - for now... It took a while because I only had fine grit old belts and so went slow to avoid heat. It's one amazing blade now. I've always been unimpressed with most large knives of this length with their thick profiles and secondary bevels - though recognizing why others want them that way. I'm very impressed with the leuko design, but leukos are no choppers of the larger wood found here. Probably there are many like me who have thought about a heavier leuko that would chop and this is it! It's almost double the weight of my Lauri leuko - but half the weight of the kelapa.
For sure it doesn't have the characteristic single bevel edge of the leuko - but that design with flat sides to the main part of the blade would act like a machete and wedge. The golok profile doesn't wedge. The false edge rules out using a baton which is a great pity, but on green poles it's nothing short of amazing, and a baton isn't required. Despite lots of chopping with similar but heavier blades I was shocked by what it would cut through rather than into. JM's "WAOW!" was exactly where I was at. More obtuse bevels on most knives meet their match when you start into harder wood - but this one seems to do very well for its size.
I guess the bottom line is that without the false edge it would be great. It is made from natural materials, including the sheath, and made by "old fashioned" methods so I do think that a lot of leuko lovers would learn to love this blade too. The handle carving was no problem in terms of abrasion - but my hands are a little calloused right now. I can't see any problem even if they weren't.
I can see that I'm going to have to get more of these for my grand-daughters! I can see it now - me testing out the latest version of some heavy duty blade and desperately beavering through poles and grand-daughters saying "Why don't you cut these bigger ones?" swish crack, swish crack...
The "Crack!" part is puzzling me. I was chopping with the sumbawa last night on some alders and noticed some very loud sharp cracking sounds. It was so loud on some hits that I thought the blade had cracked - which of course it hadn't. The alders hadn't split up as far as I could see, but the sharp "crack was exactly the same as an alder springboarding or splitting upwards. It happened even when I took a sapling in one sweep. Puzzling...
What this is telling me is that 'Wandi is on the right track with the weight range of survival goloks. From using all three sizes I'd thought that they were too close to see much difference. I guess that idea has to do with my size. It's very important for safety not to be over-bladed, so for people of regular size the weight range makes a lot of sense in matching up a blade. I'd still like to see an additional XL size - but only another 2" in length and a few ounces more. That of course would be more for work and trail clearing: the small is entirely adequate for survival purposes, both in terms of cutting poles and chopping seasoned wood for firewood.
The big surprise was the horn golok small. I spent about an hour and a half straightening everything out with a belt grinder. The edge is now one continuous curve with about as perfect an edge and bevel as I am capable of or could wish for - for now... It took a while because I only had fine grit old belts and so went slow to avoid heat. It's one amazing blade now. I've always been unimpressed with most large knives of this length with their thick profiles and secondary bevels - though recognizing why others want them that way. I'm very impressed with the leuko design, but leukos are no choppers of the larger wood found here. Probably there are many like me who have thought about a heavier leuko that would chop and this is it! It's almost double the weight of my Lauri leuko - but half the weight of the kelapa.
For sure it doesn't have the characteristic single bevel edge of the leuko - but that design with flat sides to the main part of the blade would act like a machete and wedge. The golok profile doesn't wedge. The false edge rules out using a baton which is a great pity, but on green poles it's nothing short of amazing, and a baton isn't required. Despite lots of chopping with similar but heavier blades I was shocked by what it would cut through rather than into. JM's "WAOW!" was exactly where I was at. More obtuse bevels on most knives meet their match when you start into harder wood - but this one seems to do very well for its size.
I guess the bottom line is that without the false edge it would be great. It is made from natural materials, including the sheath, and made by "old fashioned" methods so I do think that a lot of leuko lovers would learn to love this blade too. The handle carving was no problem in terms of abrasion - but my hands are a little calloused right now. I can't see any problem even if they weren't.
I can see that I'm going to have to get more of these for my grand-daughters! I can see it now - me testing out the latest version of some heavy duty blade and desperately beavering through poles and grand-daughters saying "Why don't you cut these bigger ones?" swish crack, swish crack...
The "Crack!" part is puzzling me. I was chopping with the sumbawa last night on some alders and noticed some very loud sharp cracking sounds. It was so loud on some hits that I thought the blade had cracked - which of course it hadn't. The alders hadn't split up as far as I could see, but the sharp "crack was exactly the same as an alder springboarding or splitting upwards. It happened even when I took a sapling in one sweep. Puzzling...
The package from Wandi was waiting for me when I got in late Thursday/early Friday (technically Friday).
Needless to say, thoughts of food and sleep vanished. I was quite overwhelmed with the contents.
The Klewang Maremu is gorgeous. Nearly an arm's length of hand-forged spring steel.
But, after spending several hours using it around the new place on Friday, I have to say that you were right, Jimbo.
Despite being very thick at the base, the Maremu tapers down very quickly. It came nearly shaving-sharp, and cut huge swathes of vegetation in a single pass. But, on anything but the lightest of the light, it had issues.
For example, I was able to mow down a big area of ivy and creeper in no time flat. But, when I got to the stems (about 1 - 1 1/2" thick on the largest ones), the Maremu bounced off - unless I used a forceful blow. It was the same story with light tree branches. Given my experience with the Survival L, I was surprised. (I shouldn't have been, I suppose, when you compare the two blade profiles.) I might have started with the Maremu, but I always found myself reaching for the Survival L to finish the job.
I also think you are correct on the weight/length stats on the Survival, Jimbo. Wandi does have it right. At one point, he said that the Survival was his flagship line for a reason. Now I know why. Despite my comments above, I really do like the Maremu - I certainly wish I'd had it when I had to take out a buch of thorny stuff a week-or-so back. But, the Survival golok seems to be the best all-around.
Jimbo, I think that both of us were looking for a "Survival XL". I went for the Maremu and you went for the Sumbawa. I'd definitely purchase such a golok should Wandi ever make one, though the Survival L will probably meet most of my needs just fine.
After lots of tough use, the edge on my Survival L is a mess. Small rolls and chips up and down. Steeling ain't gonna do it.
That's NO reflection on the blade. My property conceals random stones, bricks, bottles, chunks of concrete, wire and various sorts of wood. Some of it is buried. Some of it is on the ground. Some - wire and bottles - is suspended in the overgrowth itself. Yes, I was going slowly and trying to find this stuff - admittedly after the first time I hit something (a stone). As it is, I still had seven or eight unexpected contacts with hard stuff over the last couple of weeks. My sharpening skills are pretty limited. I'm going to check out the threads here and over on the other forum for ideas.
S.
PS. What's a leuko?
Needless to say, thoughts of food and sleep vanished. I was quite overwhelmed with the contents.
The Klewang Maremu is gorgeous. Nearly an arm's length of hand-forged spring steel.
But, after spending several hours using it around the new place on Friday, I have to say that you were right, Jimbo.
Despite being very thick at the base, the Maremu tapers down very quickly. It came nearly shaving-sharp, and cut huge swathes of vegetation in a single pass. But, on anything but the lightest of the light, it had issues.
For example, I was able to mow down a big area of ivy and creeper in no time flat. But, when I got to the stems (about 1 - 1 1/2" thick on the largest ones), the Maremu bounced off - unless I used a forceful blow. It was the same story with light tree branches. Given my experience with the Survival L, I was surprised. (I shouldn't have been, I suppose, when you compare the two blade profiles.) I might have started with the Maremu, but I always found myself reaching for the Survival L to finish the job.
I also think you are correct on the weight/length stats on the Survival, Jimbo. Wandi does have it right. At one point, he said that the Survival was his flagship line for a reason. Now I know why. Despite my comments above, I really do like the Maremu - I certainly wish I'd had it when I had to take out a buch of thorny stuff a week-or-so back. But, the Survival golok seems to be the best all-around.
Jimbo, I think that both of us were looking for a "Survival XL". I went for the Maremu and you went for the Sumbawa. I'd definitely purchase such a golok should Wandi ever make one, though the Survival L will probably meet most of my needs just fine.
After lots of tough use, the edge on my Survival L is a mess. Small rolls and chips up and down. Steeling ain't gonna do it.
That's NO reflection on the blade. My property conceals random stones, bricks, bottles, chunks of concrete, wire and various sorts of wood. Some of it is buried. Some of it is on the ground. Some - wire and bottles - is suspended in the overgrowth itself. Yes, I was going slowly and trying to find this stuff - admittedly after the first time I hit something (a stone). As it is, I still had seven or eight unexpected contacts with hard stuff over the last couple of weeks. My sharpening skills are pretty limited. I'm going to check out the threads here and over on the other forum for ideas.
S.
PS. What's a leuko?
This is a leuko:
I got an Eriksson blank from Ragnar's, spent a few minutes putting on a handle, sheathed it with a cheap leuko sheath from Brisa and have loved it ever since. There's a lot more to that simple Scandinavian design than you'd first think.
For those who haven't seen the Maremu:
Sounds like you have the same problem I've got here - with getting through soft dense stuff so thick that you can't push through it - then coming across some bigger/harder stuff. The Sumbawa will handle anything - but it's one heavy blade for extended use. I may have made a small mistake with getting the handle design that matches the smaller version since the back of the carving on top of the handle wears a bit of a hot spot - but otherwise the handle is so perfect that I'm really happy. Anybody considering one of these would be well advised to make up a practise model from some rebar and try using it for an hour - you wouldn't want to make a slip with the real thing - and won't after you see it go through a few trees. Be a pity to relegate one to being a wall hanger though, through fear of using it.
You're definitely out of Lansky country with sharpening blades this big. I use a simple cheap 1x30" belt grinder - but it takes a lot of practise to use something that small. You could make a passable job with going slowly and carefully with a 4" belt grinder designed for woodwork - if you can borrow the use of one. I'd sure be careful of using a hand held belt sander, in case something slips. The alternative is a lot of work with a handled coarse garden hone or coarse emery cloth glued to a board. Angle grinders and bench grinders will just ruin the temper.
The good news is that once you get the edge straight and even and get past surface defects, the edge holding and performance shoots up. That's hard to believe after seeing what one will do new - but as long as you haven't removed the temper or botched things it really does. I still like highly polished bevels and edges as with Moras - and stropping at the end of the day puts back the edge. Maybe I'm old and careful - but I run very sharp edges and they hold up.
I got an Eriksson blank from Ragnar's, spent a few minutes putting on a handle, sheathed it with a cheap leuko sheath from Brisa and have loved it ever since. There's a lot more to that simple Scandinavian design than you'd first think.
For those who haven't seen the Maremu:
Sounds like you have the same problem I've got here - with getting through soft dense stuff so thick that you can't push through it - then coming across some bigger/harder stuff. The Sumbawa will handle anything - but it's one heavy blade for extended use. I may have made a small mistake with getting the handle design that matches the smaller version since the back of the carving on top of the handle wears a bit of a hot spot - but otherwise the handle is so perfect that I'm really happy. Anybody considering one of these would be well advised to make up a practise model from some rebar and try using it for an hour - you wouldn't want to make a slip with the real thing - and won't after you see it go through a few trees. Be a pity to relegate one to being a wall hanger though, through fear of using it.
You're definitely out of Lansky country with sharpening blades this big. I use a simple cheap 1x30" belt grinder - but it takes a lot of practise to use something that small. You could make a passable job with going slowly and carefully with a 4" belt grinder designed for woodwork - if you can borrow the use of one. I'd sure be careful of using a hand held belt sander, in case something slips. The alternative is a lot of work with a handled coarse garden hone or coarse emery cloth glued to a board. Angle grinders and bench grinders will just ruin the temper.
The good news is that once you get the edge straight and even and get past surface defects, the edge holding and performance shoots up. That's hard to believe after seeing what one will do new - but as long as you haven't removed the temper or botched things it really does. I still like highly polished bevels and edges as with Moras - and stropping at the end of the day puts back the edge. Maybe I'm old and careful - but I run very sharp edges and they hold up.
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2002
- Messages
- 131
Well Spence, it seems that now you are ready for a good sharpening session.
I do mine with bench stones generally, but it also depends the amount of steel to remove.
Basically, if you got big dents, here is what I do:
Mecanical:
Rotative steel cutter, 10000 rpm with variator, equipped with norton rubber-coated sanding plate. Adjust to low speed (heat), use a 220 grit for a start. NEVER sand rotating toward the edge, but AWAY. NEVER position the edge toward you, but AWAY.
Don't try this if you have never practised before, as you'll grind bigger dents, in less time it takes me to tell it. (the rubber padding allows some excess of pressure, and also follows the convex). Maintain the angle between the disc an the blade as low as possible, because if too high, it grinds concaves (a disc edge).
The secret is to never stand on the same place. Use the reflection of light to see what you grind. I generally do this blade in one hand, grinder in the other, and swich for the other face, but you'd prefer a fixed post.
This is extremely fast in removing metal. Extremely dangerous too, if you do not get basic precautions, in clothing, position and movements. One must have seen a bit of steel catching in the rubber and flying to understand that you do not want that with a 14" knife blade.
By hand:
Gently hammer the rollings back flat if possible , take care not to chip edge doing this.
Medium norton india, use in one hand (faster movements) , blade in the other (take care about not cutting yourself), or use as a bench stone (can put pression). If you need to check your grinding angle, use a black permanent marker on 1 cm around the edge, you'll the see what you grind. With time you'll use the same technic, but with the refection of light on the blade only. On a convex edge, I expect to grind on half the blade's width to a maximum of 3cm) to maintain the profile.
After you have cleaned the dents, come back to smaller and finer grits, only on the edge and the near 1 cm. (my stones are then ceramics from spyderco, starting at medium, down to extra-fine, though the extra fine is only used for the final polish touch). But before, it you take care about finish, use a 400 or 600 water sanding paper longitudinaly to remove the traces from the norton india, and restore the look
.
Do not care while doing this about all recomendations you heard about the direction of the grinding, use the most obvious one (parallel or nearly parallell to the blade), until you have done most of the work (by changing angles), then switch to 45 against the edge (cant do 90 on big blade, not enougth stone length!).
The angles must match the convex edge, so you need to learn them, by either checking the reflection of light in the blade while grinding, or using the black marker tactic.
My field tactic is to forget about the profile and get the sharpness at any cost (angle included).
I do mine with bench stones generally, but it also depends the amount of steel to remove.
Basically, if you got big dents, here is what I do:
Mecanical:
Rotative steel cutter, 10000 rpm with variator, equipped with norton rubber-coated sanding plate. Adjust to low speed (heat), use a 220 grit for a start. NEVER sand rotating toward the edge, but AWAY. NEVER position the edge toward you, but AWAY.
Don't try this if you have never practised before, as you'll grind bigger dents, in less time it takes me to tell it. (the rubber padding allows some excess of pressure, and also follows the convex). Maintain the angle between the disc an the blade as low as possible, because if too high, it grinds concaves (a disc edge).
The secret is to never stand on the same place. Use the reflection of light to see what you grind. I generally do this blade in one hand, grinder in the other, and swich for the other face, but you'd prefer a fixed post.
This is extremely fast in removing metal. Extremely dangerous too, if you do not get basic precautions, in clothing, position and movements. One must have seen a bit of steel catching in the rubber and flying to understand that you do not want that with a 14" knife blade.
By hand:
Gently hammer the rollings back flat if possible , take care not to chip edge doing this.
Medium norton india, use in one hand (faster movements) , blade in the other (take care about not cutting yourself), or use as a bench stone (can put pression). If you need to check your grinding angle, use a black permanent marker on 1 cm around the edge, you'll the see what you grind. With time you'll use the same technic, but with the refection of light on the blade only. On a convex edge, I expect to grind on half the blade's width to a maximum of 3cm) to maintain the profile.
After you have cleaned the dents, come back to smaller and finer grits, only on the edge and the near 1 cm. (my stones are then ceramics from spyderco, starting at medium, down to extra-fine, though the extra fine is only used for the final polish touch). But before, it you take care about finish, use a 400 or 600 water sanding paper longitudinaly to remove the traces from the norton india, and restore the look
.Do not care while doing this about all recomendations you heard about the direction of the grinding, use the most obvious one (parallel or nearly parallell to the blade), until you have done most of the work (by changing angles), then switch to 45 against the edge (cant do 90 on big blade, not enougth stone length!).
The angles must match the convex edge, so you need to learn them, by either checking the reflection of light in the blade while grinding, or using the black marker tactic.
My field tactic is to forget about the profile and get the sharpness at any cost (angle included).
JM:
You're too high-tech for this boy.
I've already done the hammer-thing and will finish-up with the mouse-pad and grit paper approach. I've never tried it, but I've been interested in using it for awhile.
So, that's a leuko. I'm assuming that you're in the process of batoning it through that wood, Jimbo. Your body angle in the picture doesn't look correct for someone who has delivered a chop that deep. Unless the picture was taken after the fact. Or, you could just be one bad dude.
I do have the mixed-material issue. It's amazing what will grow in the back yard if it hasn't been maintained for 21 years. I've dealt with most of it, but still have some work ahead.
I'm now trying to decide whether I should finish it off with the long-suffering Survival L, or try the Survival S that I received along with the Maremu. The S is stockier than the L in many respects - the handle is much larger, the blade is much wider and the scabbard made of thicker wood. It feels heavier than the L, too. The only aspect in which it is slimmer than the L is the blade width - but not by much. I'm interested in what it can do, but I'd like to get more experience with the L, especially after I re-sharpen it.
S.
You're too high-tech for this boy.
I've already done the hammer-thing and will finish-up with the mouse-pad and grit paper approach. I've never tried it, but I've been interested in using it for awhile.
So, that's a leuko. I'm assuming that you're in the process of batoning it through that wood, Jimbo. Your body angle in the picture doesn't look correct for someone who has delivered a chop that deep. Unless the picture was taken after the fact. Or, you could just be one bad dude.
I do have the mixed-material issue. It's amazing what will grow in the back yard if it hasn't been maintained for 21 years. I've dealt with most of it, but still have some work ahead.
I'm now trying to decide whether I should finish it off with the long-suffering Survival L, or try the Survival S that I received along with the Maremu. The S is stockier than the L in many respects - the handle is much larger, the blade is much wider and the scabbard made of thicker wood. It feels heavier than the L, too. The only aspect in which it is slimmer than the L is the blade width - but not by much. I'm interested in what it can do, but I'd like to get more experience with the L, especially after I re-sharpen it.
S.
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2002
- Messages
- 131
Spence, no worry, try the manual way then, generally less expensive in surgery.
I doubt you can remove enough material with the mouse-pad.
Jimbo, angle grinder must be the thing. Quite a bastard when the 220 grits starts flying a 10000 rpm. I practiced many years making windsurfs.
I'll post a picture of the fallkniven A1 I have reprofiled to convex and thin edges with it. ( now looking like an A1-golok ).
I doubt you can remove enough material with the mouse-pad.
Jimbo, angle grinder must be the thing. Quite a bastard when the 220 grits starts flying a 10000 rpm
. I practiced many years making windsurfs.I'll post a picture of the fallkniven A1 I have reprofiled to convex and thin edges with it. ( now looking like an A1-golok
).You must sure have some skill, JM, using a high speed grinder on blades. I use one extensively for clening up old axe heads but it's not to be recommended without a LOT of practise first on stuff that doesn't matter. Some kevlar protective clothing and a helmet come in handy too!
I cannot say enough good about the cheap belt/disc grinder I bought on sale for under $50 US. The belt part is narrow - only 1", but with practise you can do good work with it. It doesn't heat up the steel as much as the high speed grinders, so the only issue is the skill in working with that narrow belt so you don't wreck the blade. I've done a lot of work with mine.
spence - batonning is easy and no real work at all. I worry now about recommending it for chopping down trees in the 6"+ range because if the tree springboards then then you are in a bad position, and sure to get hurt - but a child can baton down a tree. The only problem comes up when you are trying to cut against the grain on seasoned wood - it's too much work then compared to a large blade or axe. On my batonning page I have some times for cutting through a seasoned 5" log and what took better than an hour with a Mora took only minutes with a Gransfors hatchet. About a minute with a better saw. Anyway batonning is what allowed edgewise to do so well in cutting poles and firewood for his knife only survival trip, described on the other forum - using a Mora.
I did a bunch more chopping last night with the 10oz horn golok - which I've mentioned is highly reprofiled. I can see that I have some work to do with a dremel tool to modify the carving on the bird's beak to make it less of a "hot spot", Other than that, the chopping efficiency is incredible compared to some other knives I tried. The further I go with testing, the less I'm coming up with to suggest an improved survival golok. If you want something lighter then there's another model in the range... Reprofiling of the blades is of course a trade off of efficiency and edge durability if you hit rocks or such. As JM has suggested, grinding off the false edge for baton use is easy to do too. I'd like a more hardened tip - but that's really no huge issue either. Not getting too far!
I cannot say enough good about the cheap belt/disc grinder I bought on sale for under $50 US. The belt part is narrow - only 1", but with practise you can do good work with it. It doesn't heat up the steel as much as the high speed grinders, so the only issue is the skill in working with that narrow belt so you don't wreck the blade. I've done a lot of work with mine.
spence - batonning is easy and no real work at all. I worry now about recommending it for chopping down trees in the 6"+ range because if the tree springboards then then you are in a bad position, and sure to get hurt - but a child can baton down a tree. The only problem comes up when you are trying to cut against the grain on seasoned wood - it's too much work then compared to a large blade or axe. On my batonning page I have some times for cutting through a seasoned 5" log and what took better than an hour with a Mora took only minutes with a Gransfors hatchet. About a minute with a better saw. Anyway batonning is what allowed edgewise to do so well in cutting poles and firewood for his knife only survival trip, described on the other forum - using a Mora.
I did a bunch more chopping last night with the 10oz horn golok - which I've mentioned is highly reprofiled. I can see that I have some work to do with a dremel tool to modify the carving on the bird's beak to make it less of a "hot spot", Other than that, the chopping efficiency is incredible compared to some other knives I tried. The further I go with testing, the less I'm coming up with to suggest an improved survival golok. If you want something lighter then there's another model in the range... Reprofiling of the blades is of course a trade off of efficiency and edge durability if you hit rocks or such. As JM has suggested, grinding off the false edge for baton use is easy to do too. I'd like a more hardened tip - but that's really no huge issue either. Not getting too far!
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2002
- Messages
- 131
Jimbo, there is a variator on the grinder, I can set it low speed, but surely I get bored after 5 minutes so it ends 7500 RPM and sparks flying (the bucket of water is needed often).
anyway, here is the A1:
anyway, here is the A1:
It surprises me that as far as I can recall, despite all the reviews and comments on the Fallkniven series - you and I are the only ones who have done serious reprofiling. I stayed with taking the primary bevel to the edge creating a Scandinavian grind - with a very slight convex to the edge.
The performance of course increases by a great amount. While I had the original A1 with the regular secondary bevel, rather than the convex - I did have a factory convex bevel on my H1 - and it improved in performance very considerably when treated the same way.
I'd suspect that many are confused by the concept of the A1 or H1. The advantage of the thickness is that it allows the knife to much better split wood for fires. So in that respect it is a sharpened prybar. Your grind would beat mine for splitting by a great amount, due to the better efficiency of the splitting wedge profile. Mine is the limit that someone "issued" with a knife would get away with - with no-one noticing. The bottom line is that with treatment these blades will whittle fuzzy sticks as well as a Mora, split wood, etc. They are still no choppers - but with a baton will cut down trees handily: not shelter poles but trees in case you need a real pry bar for lifting up a truck.
We are at an interesting point here. There are knives such as the A1 which with treatment and intelligent use will perform most survival tasks with ease. There are large thin blades which will accomplish some tasks such as splitting bowstaves and butchering with more ease and precision. Then there are the goloks where even a lighter blade than the A1 will outchop it by orders of magnitude. It's not a question of which one is better, and I'm certainly not picking on the A1 which is an incredible survial knife. It's all about the user and the user's needs and skills.
The performance of course increases by a great amount. While I had the original A1 with the regular secondary bevel, rather than the convex - I did have a factory convex bevel on my H1 - and it improved in performance very considerably when treated the same way.
I'd suspect that many are confused by the concept of the A1 or H1. The advantage of the thickness is that it allows the knife to much better split wood for fires. So in that respect it is a sharpened prybar. Your grind would beat mine for splitting by a great amount, due to the better efficiency of the splitting wedge profile. Mine is the limit that someone "issued" with a knife would get away with - with no-one noticing. The bottom line is that with treatment these blades will whittle fuzzy sticks as well as a Mora, split wood, etc. They are still no choppers - but with a baton will cut down trees handily: not shelter poles but trees in case you need a real pry bar for lifting up a truck.
We are at an interesting point here. There are knives such as the A1 which with treatment and intelligent use will perform most survival tasks with ease. There are large thin blades which will accomplish some tasks such as splitting bowstaves and butchering with more ease and precision. Then there are the goloks where even a lighter blade than the A1 will outchop it by orders of magnitude. It's not a question of which one is better, and I'm certainly not picking on the A1 which is an incredible survial knife. It's all about the user and the user's needs and skills.
Cliff Stamp
BANNED
- Joined
- Oct 5, 1998
- Messages
- 17,562
With the length issue, for me it was never a matter of power. Even with a relatively small blade (10"), with a proper grind (2" wide, full), and a thin and acute edge (0.020"-0.030", 10-15 degrees per side), you can have the chopping ability exceeding that of the Gransfors Bruks hatchet. Outside of going two handed (which tends to suggest axe rather strongly), that is a pretty high chopping ability. Now to put this into perspective, the hardest wood we have around here is Spruce, and we cut mostly softer Birch (not as much softer than spruce but clearer), Fir and Pine. With such a 10" blade I was never left for want of chopping ability, even wood as large as 4", was easily handled. For cutting wood much larger than that, you are not shelter building, nor fire building (it will take a hell of a time to burn wet wood of that size, and even dry you are splitting to get a decent heat). The only time I was really put out was when I wanted to clear some seasoned dead fall, and I either used one of my larger khukuris (Ang Khola, 18" and 22"), or a light axe.
However, there is a really strong reason why I don't tend to use 10" class blades for extended brush work, and that is reach. I do a lot of lot cleanup. Habit mainly, I grew up doing it as I used to burn the boughs and such while the wood was cut and stacked, so I would put a small hatchet to use picking out the brush and limbing it out and stacking it up. When I clear a lot now, there isn't much burnt except boughs, I even limb out tops and stack them up. Last year I brought home two truck loads of wood off a friends lot that he had already cleared. It was all 2" and under sticks. This isn't very efficient from a time perspective, but I view it as recreation anyway. Great wood for testing out the chopping ability of most smaller knives and edge durability as it is all one to two years seasoned. Anyway, when you are limbing, the extra ability of a few inches makes a huge difference. Handle a few trees and you will wonder what the fuss is about, but spend four hours doing the same and see if all the bending and stretching with a 10" blade doesn't get you wishing you had a 14-16" knife instead.
So much of it is dependent on the size and class of wood. Around here a large amount of what is burned is actually 6" and under. On this class of wood I limb them out while manipulating them with the other hand. Again just another habit formed from starting with very small trees. Because of this method I am limited in blade size to about 16" or so, if I go larger than this my other arm gets in the way. However my brother prefers a much larger blade as he doesn't limb this way. He loved the 18" Barteaux machete. Sweep the limbs off until way over head hight, cut the tree down, walk along it sweeping the limbs off and you are done. I have tried that with larger blades, but it just doesn't feel right, and again I am not doing it as a job, just recreation so I do what I enjoy. There are only one to two trees cut down a day that have limbs that big that you would want an axe to cut them off, and these obviously are not picked up while limbing. So again, environment dictates perspective very strongly. Maybe I have just not handled the right 20"+ blade as well.
With the survival Golok, right now it handles very well for me. It is at a weight and balance that has enough heft for powerful chopping, yet isn't that heavy that it can't be used for light brush clearing for extended periods of time. If it was longer and heavier, there is no doubt the power would increase, however I would think that an Ang Khola would tend to be a better choice then for a lot of wood as it would move more freely in the wood, and of course a light axe tends to start to be more functional. Maybe it is time for me to vacation somewhere that has really hard wood though to see if my perspective would change. The khukuri also has other advantages which come into play when you are working with such wood; a much heavier tip for prying it apart, and a thicker blade for a much better splitter.
Singularity, hell of a job on the A1. I don't have near that control with an angle grinder. The new ones are ground like that, but have sabre profiles.
-Cliff
However, there is a really strong reason why I don't tend to use 10" class blades for extended brush work, and that is reach. I do a lot of lot cleanup. Habit mainly, I grew up doing it as I used to burn the boughs and such while the wood was cut and stacked, so I would put a small hatchet to use picking out the brush and limbing it out and stacking it up. When I clear a lot now, there isn't much burnt except boughs, I even limb out tops and stack them up. Last year I brought home two truck loads of wood off a friends lot that he had already cleared. It was all 2" and under sticks. This isn't very efficient from a time perspective, but I view it as recreation anyway. Great wood for testing out the chopping ability of most smaller knives and edge durability as it is all one to two years seasoned. Anyway, when you are limbing, the extra ability of a few inches makes a huge difference. Handle a few trees and you will wonder what the fuss is about, but spend four hours doing the same and see if all the bending and stretching with a 10" blade doesn't get you wishing you had a 14-16" knife instead.
So much of it is dependent on the size and class of wood. Around here a large amount of what is burned is actually 6" and under. On this class of wood I limb them out while manipulating them with the other hand. Again just another habit formed from starting with very small trees. Because of this method I am limited in blade size to about 16" or so, if I go larger than this my other arm gets in the way. However my brother prefers a much larger blade as he doesn't limb this way. He loved the 18" Barteaux machete. Sweep the limbs off until way over head hight, cut the tree down, walk along it sweeping the limbs off and you are done. I have tried that with larger blades, but it just doesn't feel right, and again I am not doing it as a job, just recreation so I do what I enjoy. There are only one to two trees cut down a day that have limbs that big that you would want an axe to cut them off, and these obviously are not picked up while limbing. So again, environment dictates perspective very strongly. Maybe I have just not handled the right 20"+ blade as well.
With the survival Golok, right now it handles very well for me. It is at a weight and balance that has enough heft for powerful chopping, yet isn't that heavy that it can't be used for light brush clearing for extended periods of time. If it was longer and heavier, there is no doubt the power would increase, however I would think that an Ang Khola would tend to be a better choice then for a lot of wood as it would move more freely in the wood, and of course a light axe tends to start to be more functional. Maybe it is time for me to vacation somewhere that has really hard wood though to see if my perspective would change. The khukuri also has other advantages which come into play when you are working with such wood; a much heavier tip for prying it apart, and a thicker blade for a much better splitter.
Singularity, hell of a job on the A1. I don't have near that control with an angle grinder. The new ones are ground like that, but have sabre profiles.
-Cliff
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2002
- Messages
- 131
I'll post a review of the Mod. A1 one of these days.
I think the edge is now thinner than even the newer factory one...
For long blades, I have a Parang Nabur in preparation, 20 inches of blade, with one of these super-excellent damascus blades.
Cliff, I am still not sure who had the control, the edger-grinder, or me
Meanwhile, I have planned 2 weeks in the mountains starting next week, this will allow me to try some wood splitting with the parang, baiwan and goloks, as well as some other smaller knives (roselli UHC, nimravus cub, helle fjeldkniv (sandwitch blade), and few folders ...).
It also turns out I have got some banana trees in the garden this week-end, and I am going to have fun, nothing is much fun than cutting a 3 meters tree in a single blow! I'll take pictures this time.
The last time I tried, it was the 17" chiruwa, and it failed at 3/4 of the 20 cm trunk. I feel a parang or Surv golok would make it.
Jimbo, while on hols, I'll do the comparison beetween golok Naga and the Mod. A1, should be interesting...
Any non destructive test you whish to see (batonning...)?
Any blade I own you want tested? (a picture list is there:
http://singularity.free.fr/upload/Couteaux-11.jpg
http://singularity.free.fr/upload/Couteaux-12.jpg
http://singularity.free.fr/upload/Couteaux-20.jpg
http://singularity.free.fr/upload/Couteaux-24.jpg
http://singularity.free.fr/upload/Couteaux-30.jpg
http://singularity.free.fr/upload/Couteaux-34.jpg
http://singularity.free.fr/upload/New-03.JPG
http://singularity.free.fr/upload/New-18.JPG
)
Cliff, for your fun, here is another Fallkniven that got heavily modified:
I think the edge is now thinner than even the newer factory one...
For long blades, I have a Parang Nabur in preparation, 20 inches of blade, with one of these super-excellent damascus blades.
Cliff, I am still not sure who had the control, the edger-grinder, or me
Meanwhile, I have planned 2 weeks in the mountains starting next week, this will allow me to try some wood splitting with the parang, baiwan and goloks, as well as some other smaller knives (roselli UHC, nimravus cub, helle fjeldkniv (sandwitch blade), and few folders ...).
It also turns out I have got some banana trees in the garden this week-end, and I am going to have fun, nothing is much fun than cutting a 3 meters tree in a single blow! I'll take pictures this time.
The last time I tried, it was the 17" chiruwa, and it failed at 3/4 of the 20 cm trunk. I feel a parang or Surv golok would make it.Jimbo, while on hols, I'll do the comparison beetween golok Naga and the Mod. A1, should be interesting...
Any non destructive test you whish to see (batonning...)?
Any blade I own you want tested? (a picture list is there:
http://singularity.free.fr/upload/Couteaux-11.jpg
http://singularity.free.fr/upload/Couteaux-12.jpg
http://singularity.free.fr/upload/Couteaux-20.jpg
http://singularity.free.fr/upload/Couteaux-24.jpg
http://singularity.free.fr/upload/Couteaux-30.jpg
http://singularity.free.fr/upload/Couteaux-34.jpg
http://singularity.free.fr/upload/New-03.JPG
http://singularity.free.fr/upload/New-18.JPG
)
Cliff, for your fun, here is another Fallkniven that got heavily modified:
JM:
I'd be interested in what the Loka and Hitam can do. Both are on my "to get when the house-related-cash-haemorraging lets up" list. IIRC, you posted a little re: both blades awhile back - just enough to whet the appetite.
S.
PS. I picked up a Sunda 2, since the Loka was sold out. On the site, the specs looked pretty similar between the Loka and the Sunda 2. The Sunda 2 is truly beautiful, but the blade is too light for field use, I believe.
I'd be interested in what the Loka and Hitam can do. Both are on my "to get when the house-related-cash-haemorraging lets up" list. IIRC, you posted a little re: both blades awhile back - just enough to whet the appetite.
S.
PS. I picked up a Sunda 2, since the Loka was sold out. On the site, the specs looked pretty similar between the Loka and the Sunda 2. The Sunda 2 is truly beautiful, but the blade is too light for field use, I believe.
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2002
- Messages
- 131
Mmmm, you'd be amazed by the loka in the field. Not a great chopper, by an excellent machete. The Sunda2 is a looker sure!
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2002
- Messages
- 131
BTW, Spence,
Wandi told me the Hitam would be discontinued, and replaced by a blade of same size, but with the Surv golok handle. Well worth the wait!
The loka review can be read compared to the Surv G and a khukh in the first review I posted.
Wandi told me the Hitam would be discontinued, and replaced by a blade of same size, but with the Surv golok handle. Well worth the wait!
The loka review can be read compared to the Surv G and a khukh in the first review I posted.
It sounds like Wandi will be discontinuing a number of the goloks currently appearing in his catalog. I think the Survival is pretty much "it", but that won't keep me from trying different styles in the future.
S.
PS. Did some initial work with the mousepad and 400 grit wet-and-dry paper. It works pretty well. The Survival L will now shave over much of its length, but the edge isn't quite clean yet. I'm going to try a coarser grit to work a little more quickly and get the last of the dings out. Then, I'll finish with some finer stuff.
S.
PS. Did some initial work with the mousepad and 400 grit wet-and-dry paper. It works pretty well. The Survival L will now shave over much of its length, but the edge isn't quite clean yet. I'm going to try a coarser grit to work a little more quickly and get the last of the dings out. Then, I'll finish with some finer stuff.
Cliff Stamp
BANNED
- Joined
- Oct 5, 1998
- Messages
- 17,562
Finally got the review up :
http://www.physics.mun.ca/~sstamp/knives/valiant_golok.html
Still needs some cleaning, it is basically the above commentary stitched together with an attempt to be cohesive.
In short this blade has a very optomized profile for brush work. It handles thick wood very well, it very fluid in cutting, while at the same time dispatching grass and light vegetation with ease. The handle I found comfortable, secure, no slipping or rotation, and there was little or no shock even on heavy impacts. It is one of the nicest blades I have ever worked with in regards to feel in use.
There are some downsides however.
This isn't a "tactial" or "heavy utility" blade. Similar as to how you would not use a Gransfors Bruks axe to chop sods, the Valiant Golok isn't a bone, concrete or nail chopper. It also doesn't not work well on roots or really dense or seasoned limbing, as traditionally such work isn't not done with the primary wood cutting wood (the limbs in fact are usually broken not cut). You could also expect some damage on hard knots, again this is traditionally to be expected, generally it is rare to have wood working blades optomized for the worse case senario as it wastes performance in clear wood which is the majority of what is usually cut.
This blade will take more care and skill in use to see its true potential. In particular some time would be well worth spent in developing a strong draw cut. If this blade is used with the same swing as a straight machete, a lot of the cutting ability will be wasted. I would also tend to make sure the cutting path was clear of debris and such before doing the work with the Golok but with a cheap machete I would just hack away and later file out any damage. You could of course do the same with the Golok, however the damage is likely to be more extensive as the edge is finer, and it costs significantly more.
As well, the fit and finish isn't going to be as high as most modern production knives. You may have to do some sharpening work, and even some reprofiling. The blade finish as a whole isn't going to be 100%, there could be scratches, hollows and other forging marks, and there may be other cosmetic issues as well (and of course no Kydex sheath). However when you consider the price, and what you are really getting, a hand forged, carbon steel blade with a differential temper, all of this is reasonable.
The only real solid drawback (in my perspective) is the hardening. The edge isn't uniformly hardened along the entire length. It gets soft towards the tip and the choil, so care needs to be taken when working with these regions. The reason why this is a concern to me is that the heavy ingrowth around here makes tip work necessary, on more open vegetation you would just concentrate all heavy impacts on the central region of the blade where it is at full hardness.
-Cliff
http://www.physics.mun.ca/~sstamp/knives/valiant_golok.html
Still needs some cleaning, it is basically the above commentary stitched together with an attempt to be cohesive.
In short this blade has a very optomized profile for brush work. It handles thick wood very well, it very fluid in cutting, while at the same time dispatching grass and light vegetation with ease. The handle I found comfortable, secure, no slipping or rotation, and there was little or no shock even on heavy impacts. It is one of the nicest blades I have ever worked with in regards to feel in use.
There are some downsides however.
This isn't a "tactial" or "heavy utility" blade. Similar as to how you would not use a Gransfors Bruks axe to chop sods, the Valiant Golok isn't a bone, concrete or nail chopper. It also doesn't not work well on roots or really dense or seasoned limbing, as traditionally such work isn't not done with the primary wood cutting wood (the limbs in fact are usually broken not cut). You could also expect some damage on hard knots, again this is traditionally to be expected, generally it is rare to have wood working blades optomized for the worse case senario as it wastes performance in clear wood which is the majority of what is usually cut.
This blade will take more care and skill in use to see its true potential. In particular some time would be well worth spent in developing a strong draw cut. If this blade is used with the same swing as a straight machete, a lot of the cutting ability will be wasted. I would also tend to make sure the cutting path was clear of debris and such before doing the work with the Golok but with a cheap machete I would just hack away and later file out any damage. You could of course do the same with the Golok, however the damage is likely to be more extensive as the edge is finer, and it costs significantly more.
As well, the fit and finish isn't going to be as high as most modern production knives. You may have to do some sharpening work, and even some reprofiling. The blade finish as a whole isn't going to be 100%, there could be scratches, hollows and other forging marks, and there may be other cosmetic issues as well (and of course no Kydex sheath). However when you consider the price, and what you are really getting, a hand forged, carbon steel blade with a differential temper, all of this is reasonable.
The only real solid drawback (in my perspective) is the hardening. The edge isn't uniformly hardened along the entire length. It gets soft towards the tip and the choil, so care needs to be taken when working with these regions. The reason why this is a concern to me is that the heavy ingrowth around here makes tip work necessary, on more open vegetation you would just concentrate all heavy impacts on the central region of the blade where it is at full hardness.
-Cliff
Thanks, Cliff. I think that there was a fair amount of interesting stuff in your review that I hadn't seen in this thread.
Out of curiousity, did you determine how deep the hardened region is? I've been meaning to etch my SGL for awhile, but it remains on the "to do" list.
S.
Out of curiousity, did you determine how deep the hardened region is? I've been meaning to etch my SGL for awhile, but it remains on the "to do" list.
S.