Value of heavy bag in stick training

SYK

Joined
Feb 21, 2000
Messages
2,232
When I learnt boxing a long time ago, I remember spending hundreds of hours, perhaps thousands, hitting the heavy bag when I was developing punches and combinations.

Do you think that doing this with sticks, particularly two sticks, will be of any value to a person who is just starting to learn abt using sticks?

Of course we are just talking abt developing the physical technique part of the art(is it muscle memory?) and not how to apply the techniques, which will come from sparring.

Best wishes and thanks in advance for your replies
 
Absolutely! Hitting the bag with sticks conditions you to strike against resistance, teaches you how to handle rebound and redirection, and gives you the sense of what its like to hit with committment. An even better striking practice is to hit a padded post or a securely anchored automobile tire.
Pound away! :-)

Keith

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"Walk softly and carry a big stick!"
Teddy Roosevelt
 
Hitting a heavy bag or a tire is good for developing power in your strikes. The tire is better because it won't get damaged from the stick strikes. We use tires and Century freestanding bags that have WEKAF armor over them to protect the bag's surface. Keep a good grip on your stick and your live hand up. I split open my lip and loosened a tooth doing rompida strikes on a tire, so go slow at first. The sticks can come back at you when hitting tires.


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K. Williams
Modern Arnis Student
AKTI Member #A000978
 
i used to use foam covered bats on my Wave bag, but had to put sand bags around the base of the thing. the rhythm would get it moving around too much.
Kelvin, how are you? i remember seeing some pics once of some Cuban boxers training on a beach. It was in a poor area, and they had to make do with some interesting equipment. One thing they would do was bury tires down deep in the sand and then repeatedly bang away at them with sledgehammers. must have done something for the forearms as well as the back and legs; would be very good for the movements involved in Judo and throw-oriented sports i would imagine.
 
A heavy bag is ok but, as previously stated, a car tire is better for a few reasons. First, if you've ever hit someone full blast with a stick, I think you'll find that the tire more closely approximates that feeling than a heavy bag does. Second, tires are more versatile than a heavy bag in the way they can be arranged and struck with a stick. Finally, the tire is much more durable than a heavy bag when using a stick. A bag just won't last long under pull power thrusts and punyos.

We have two types that we use. The first is a hanging tire. Drill 2 holes through the tread (into the center of the tire) so that the holes are on opposite ends of the tire from each other and put eye bolts in each hole. Now you can hang the tire just like a heavy bag at different heights depending upon what you're working on. The bottom eye bolt can be used to anchor the bottom to some sort of heavy base so that the tire doesn't swing as much. A good base is a tire filled with cement and an eye bolt in the cement. "Bungee cords" work well to anchor the tire to the base. If the tire is hanging near a wall, you can further anchor it to the wall using another eye bolt and "bungee cord". You can also just let the tire hang and put a few bricks inside it. Each of these configurations is used for different purposes.

The second one is what we call a "tire dummy". It's a 4 x 4 post set in a base consisting of two car tires stacked on top of each other and filled with cement. You can bolt two tires to each side of the post. We put a smaller tire at head height and another, larger tire just below it at torso height. Between these two tires and the base, you can move up and down the entire "body" while striking, thrusting, punyo-ing with your stick; punching with your live hand, elbowing, kneeing and kicking. You can use your foot work to move around the dummy and if you have tires on all four sides you can put it in the middle of the floor and use your foot work to move all the way around the dummy. Hitting this one feels the most like hitting a human body. I think Keith saw and used this one at the seminar with Eric Knaus, though we didn't have the tires up on all 4 sides that day.

A couple of draw backs to tires are that they will destroy rattan sticks very quickly and they can do a real number on your hands, knees, elbows and feet. The solution is to use hard wood sticks (but not expensive stuff like kamagong, bahi, cocobolo, etc) or wooden dowels (wrapped in electrical tape), and wear bag gloves, elbow & knee pads and shoes unless your body parts are already well conditioned.

For less than what you'd probably pay for an average heavy bag, you can build both of these tire dummies and both are great supplements to a heavy bag for empty hand training as well. Best of all, you probablly will not need to replace them in your life time.

Sorry for the long post, but I hope it helps.

Respectfully,

Dave Fulton



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Full Contact Martial Arts Association.

"As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another."




[This message has been edited by Dave Fulton (edited 05-31-2000).]
 
Dave,

I know what you mean about tires being rough on the hands! Make sure you find a tire that still has it's steel belt covered with rubber. We have one with some of the steel wires exposed, and it can tear up the live hand when you do checking to the tire.

KELT,

How's everything? We'll be attending Guro Bolden's seminar this summer. Are you planning on attending? I'm not sure if we will be staying for both days yet.


Kelvin
 
I agree with Kelvin, make sure all the fibers of the steel belt are covered. Also, if the tire has a decent amount of tread left, you will tear your knuckles, elbows, etc up so be careful.

I just bought two 30" lengths of 1" dia. Delrin rod today to experiment with on our tire dummies. If what I've read is correct, our days of shredding rattan and breaking hard wood on the tire dummies is over
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This seems like some pretty good stuff. It has about the same flex as my rattan stick, but it's heavier, though not as heavy as kamagong. I don't think I'd want to get hit with it either, unless the only alternative was getting hit with kamagong
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Dave.

 
Kelvin,
i wish i could- i'm cutting back a bit now, cause i'm going back to school for another degree. Finishing up my R.N.- hopefully i'll still work part-time at the V.A. Got a scholarship and they accepted most of the credits i have. So i only have to take the core work and clinicals; even so, money will be tight as well as time. Temporary retirement, although i'd like to try some Sayoc Kali- the seminars aren't that expensive and the reputation seems to be stellar. I'll have to e-mail Guro Bolden and say hello!
 
We used the Delrin sticks on the tire dummy last night with mixed results.

They have an odd feel to them at times. When doing "broken" strikes the sticks have a noticeable vibration that is almost imperceptable when doing fluid strikes. There's also a noticeable difference in weight eventhough they're the same dimensions as our rattan sticks. I don't mind this as much because I figure it's just a form of weight training and it forces you to concentrate more on body mechanics so that you can really move the stick. They're harder to hold onto than rattan, especially under power.

However, I do not think they'll break anytime soon so long as we only use them for the tire dummy (which was the main goal). I need to get a bench grinder or something to round the ends just a little to de-burr the sticks because I got a nice little cut from one of them. I'm also going to try to figure out some way to improve the grip.

All in all, I think they'll work. By the way, they didn't have any black Delrin rods so I bought the standard white rods and after hitting the tires, the sticks have a cool looking black & white tiger stripe pattern to them
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If anyone has any ideas for deburring the ends or improving the grips, I'd love to hear them.

Respectfully,

Dave Fulton



------------------
Full Contact Martial Arts Association.

"As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another."


 
Hi Dave!
You can round off the ends with a standard wood rasp from the hardware store. Its like a file, but with bigger teeth! :-) I've tried wrapping the polycarb sticks with grip tape and such, but I find the best solution is just to wear the finger-less weight-lifter's gloves.

Keith


------------------
"Walk softly and carry a big stick!"
Teddy Roosevelt
 
Dave,

For deburring the ends of the sticks, get a Dremel tool. They are cheaper than a bench grinder, and come with more attachments. For the grip...maybe hockey stick tape or sanding it with sandpaper to roughen it up some.

KELT,

I think Guro Bolden will have a Silat practitioner at this seminar. Should be interesting. Maybe you'll make it to the next seminar...


Kelvin


 
SYK,
I dont have a heavy bag but I have a dummy that I made. They are easy enough to make. I have foam mattress pads wrapped around a homemade stand and taped tight with duck tape. It is in my den so I can work indoors, while my little one watches TV, plays etc. It is great for developing muscle memory, great to practice single or double stick. Its nice to hit something instead of hitting the air. Crank some tunes while you practice and you are all set.
 
Kelvin,

I wasn't actually going to buy a bench grinder ... I have little use for one and I know people who have them anyway. I've been thinking of getting a Dremel, but I'm not sure I'd get enough use out of it to justify it. If I'm thinking of the same thing you are when you say "hockey stick tape", then this is one option that I was going to look into. If I'm correct, it's a cloth tape and unlike tennis raquet tape, it isn't padded so it won't change the grip size. Of course adding a grip tape with a little padding might help dampen the reverberation.

Keith,

I'll try the wood rasp ... I DO have one of those. I'm also thinking about getting some baseball batting gloves or something similar because my hands tend to sweat a lot when I train and I often find my sticks slipping.

Thank you both.

Dave.

P.S. Donna is dead on ... good music is a must during training.

[This message has been edited by Dave Fulton (edited 06-02-2000).]
 
Dave,

Yeah, that's the tape. Cloth tape with no padding. It also helps you keep a grip with sweaty hands.


Kelvin
 
An update on the delrin sticks:

1.) The wood rasp did a nice job smoothing out the sharp edges .... thanks for the idea Keith!
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2.) The hockey stick tape did WONDERS for the grip problem. Even under full-speed & power combos, the sticks didn't slip a bit!
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Thanks Kelvin! However, after a little while the tape started to get gummed up ... it looks like the tape's adhesive seeped through.
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The tape package didn't give any directions, so I just kinda winged it. Was I supposed to wait for a few hours (or days) after applying the tape before using them or something
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Dave.

 
Dave,

That can't be helped. It happened to my sticks too. The adhesive ends up on your hands also. After a while they kind of smooth out(hard to explain) and you won't have any more problems with the extra adhesive getting onto your hands.

Kelvin
 
SYK-

One point to keep in mind is to train for
mobility sometimes. Just like boxing, start
out of range, come in, work it, then get out.

The tendency on the heavybag can be to just
stand there and work power shots.

Couch
 
Hocky stick tape, thats what I needed. No more broken windows, or climbing over the fence to get the stick back from the neighbors yard.

Good thread.
 
If I try hitting things hard with my asp baton it eventually bends.
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I wish there was a non-collapsible training baton that would feel the same, but wouldn't bend.
 
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