Value of Noss's Destruction Tests

[Guyon]

maybe this is all part of the Noss Master Plan.

I think you're giving way too much credit here. Those enamored with noss4 might go back and look at how he approached both his so-called "tests" as well as one knife maker in particular at the outset of his enterprise. The Search function is your friend.

 

[gajinoz]

It seems to me that the biggest complaint raised with Noss' test are that they are not scientific in presentation. So the entire issue seems to rest with pseudoreplication. If Noss were to take 5 knives of the same brand and repeat his tests, running through the same routine, you could then argue that his tests now become scientific.

Wrong.

The criticisms about not hitting the hammer at the exact same spot, or with a slight angle, or somewhat more power, now disappear simply because the 'random error' with these variables would become assigned across his replicates. Hell knows, maybe this is all part of the Noss Master Plan. He is going through his first round of tests and pretty soon will start the 2nd replicates. Once he gets the third one down now we can say it is scientific.

Wrong

unrealistic. I think the constant claim of the tests being unscientific is a guise to the real complaint that some wage that knives should not be subjected to that kind of abuse.

Wrong

So, basically nobody around here does Scientific testing. They do repeated tests on the same knife and are guilty of the same pseudoreplication error that Noss is. Why is Noss the only who gets so much flak?

Mostly correct.

People like the fling the word "scientific" around without the slightest understanding of what it actually means.

Perhaps people might like to begin their journey of learning here:
http://www.sciencebuddies.org/mentoring/project_scientific_method.shtml

These "tests" are about as far from a rigorously controlled scientific test as you can get.

I don't care if people find them entertaining, I don't even care all that much if people, for some reason, consider them valuable or useful, but I do get annoyed when people use the term "scientific" in relation to them.

Your claim that people have ulterior motives for calling them unscientific is, at best, wishful thinking. People say they are unscientific for the simple reason that they ARE unscientific.

Call his "tests" anything you want, but they have NO connection with science.

 

[Buffalohump]

Do the new BF servers really need to be cluttered with a subject that has been discussed ad nauseam? :barf:

Let it die, people...

 

[nozh2002]

Do the new BF servers really need to be cluttered with a subject that has been discussed ad nauseam? :barf:

Let it die, people...

Please, watch the video - you sad you have no time to waste to actually look at this, but you have quite a bit of time to pollute this threads with your anger?

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[Izan]

I think you're giving way too much credit here. Those enamored with noss4 might go back and look at how he approached both his so-called "tests" as well as one knife maker in particular at the outset of his enterprise. The Search function is your friend.

I like how your Avatar is a screen cap of out5yder, an active poster and contributer of information and testing over at Noss' forum.

 

[STAGE 2]

People say they are unscientific for the simple reason that they ARE unscientific.

That may be so, but you didn't finish the thought. Namely that there is no scientific way to realistically test a knife.

Using a machine will certianly be more technical, more accurate, and more "scientific", but its not going to be more realistic because the human element has been removed and its a human thats going to be using it in the field.

The same goes for those complaining about improper technique. A knife that can stand up to improper technique is going to be tougher than one that cant.

 

[nozh2002]

This tests are scientific, even they do not looks like Hollywood science. What is scientific methodology is easy to learn from Internet, but if people do not "waste" their time on actually see this videos, I doubt they will evel bother to learn what actually science is.

Well even they know what science is - how they can check those tests if they did not see them? Based on name "Destruction test" they create this fiction in their mind and fight this fiction very enthusiastically. But nobody bother to see reality because it take an effort to simple watch it for 8 minutes!

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[Phil Elmore]

No, they are not scientific. Any fool can break a knife if that is his purpose and intent. These aren't tests at all; they're stunts performed for entertainment purposes, from which people are erroneously drawing substantive conclusions on the basis of illogic and supposition.

 

[OldPhysics]

No, they are not scientific. Any fool can break a knife if that is his purpose and intent. These aren't tests at all; they're stunts performed for entertainment purposes, from which people are erroneously drawing substantive conclusions on the basis of illogic and supposition.

Factually accurate. [OK ... I'm wordy. ]

Phil is entirely correct. Take it as entertainment only. There is nothing of the scientific method in his stunts.

Which is fine by me. The other card-carrying scientists tell me I can't wear a hockey mask while running my tests ... so I don't think he should be able to.

 

[STAGE 2]

No, they are not scientific. Any fool can break a knife if that is his purpose and intent.

No one is debating that. However what is telling is how much effort and time the fool takes to break it.

 

[sunnyd]

.. However what is telling is how much effort and time the fool takes to break it.

How is it telling?

When I select and purchase a hunting knife for instance, is the burning question in my mind whether or not that this particular hunting knife will stand up to some idiot wearing a hockey mask in his covered climate controled work shop that is beating the piss out of this hunting knife on concrete blocks and striking the spine with a sledgehammer with case hardened steel until it is destroyed?

Or, is it perhaps more important to know how many Whitetail Deer or Wild Hog it can gut, field dress and camp cook prep prior to the dulling of edge retention in perhaps sub zero temperatures and inclement weather during extended usage this winter?

An honest answer please?

 

[fujita yuji]

I watched the vid to the end skipping until the product breaks.
Now I can see why these threads are so active and I feel sorry for the owners of
those knives outrageously broken in the vid.

 

[nozh2002]

No, they are not scientific. Any fool can break a knife if that is his purpose and intent. These aren't tests at all; they're stunts performed for entertainment purposes, from which people are erroneously drawing substantive conclusions on the basis of illogic and supposition.

They are clearly not what you just sad and anyone who see videos can recognize it. Do you think if you repeat those nonsenses again and again it wil make it different?

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[nozh2002]

How is it telling?

When I select and purchase a hunting knife for instance, is the burning question in my mind whether or not that this particular hunting knife will stand up to some idiot wearing a hockey mask in his covered climate controled work shop that is beating the piss out of this hunting knife on concrete blocks and striking the spine with a sledgehammer with case hardened steel until it is destroyed?

Or, is it perhaps more important to know how many Whitetail Deer or Wild Hog it can gut, field dress and camp cook prep prior to the dulling of edge retention in perhaps sub zero temperatures and inclement weather during extended usage this winter?

An honest answer please?

Well, If you are fair you should admit your failure to recognize those tests as valid and not destractive at all.

If you have different agenda - then only calling you opponent idiot and other personal attack is your option. And this behaviour is very simptomatic to me.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[STAGE 2]

How is it telling?

An honest answer please?

For the simple reason that some people care about toughness. Again, what Noss does isn't going to be applicable to everybody. Some people aren't going to care how much of a beating a knife can take. Rather they are going to care about edge holding, sharpness etc. Thats perfectly fine. No one is making the argument that everyone should care about these tests.

But the knife community isn't limited to people that only care about cutting ability. If it was Busse and scrapyard wouldn't be nearly as popular as they are. If cutting was the end all and be all of a knife then we wouldn't see these very thick knives with thick grinds.

So, for the people that do care about toughness, what he does provides information that you simply won't be able to find elsewhere.

 

[nozh2002]

Let then goes over Noss4 video for Project I step by step to see this "knife destruction for entertaining".

He introduced knive - as A2 thick heavy duty one piece...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0H8EFC26vw

1. Peel apple, (I tests on potato) - shows basic ability to use knife for "fine" thing like food prparation, reasonable test and Project one doing all right.
2. Slice an apple - reaonable test to me - show that blade is bit too thick for fine slicing.
3. Cut 10000 pounf ribbon cutting
4. Control Cutting of 10 000 pound ribbon
5. Cut same with serration
6. Chopping 2x4 - not a good chopper according to Noss4. get some energy to do. not heavy enough...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZ2fT6pL4xQ

7. Cut 10000 ribbon after chopping - cut well no difference on the edge.
8. Batooning firewood hitting with wood - done.
9. Cutting Ribbon after batooning. - less sharp.
10. Tip break test on 2x4 "dig through" - perfect shape after testing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VmWJOAJB5I

11. Tip test on metal - snaped off very tip few mm but no any serious non fixable, compare holes with holes from other knife. Reasonable test for survival knife.
12. Batooning through 2x4 with 3 pound steel hummer

I would say he hit it very gently, defenetely without intention to destroy it with blade about 60 degree to wood) until at 8 minutes it breaks very easy without actually any hard hit and at the different point from where he did hit it with hummer, but near handle.

So is it stupid and pointless destruction for entertainment, unrepeatable etc, etc, etc?

Thanks, Vassili.

It is absolutely clear that some just build some fiction around only words "Destruction test" and talk and talk and talk without having see those videos...

Let me say it again for those who continue to insist that this is destruction for entartaining reason.

They never see those videos and just repeats again and again their agenda - while anyone who really look can recognize that this is far far from truth.

Again look for youself - knife broken without any intention from Noss and you may see it in 3rd video around 8 minute.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[Karda]

Let me say it again for those who continue to insist that this is destruction for entartaining reason.

They never see those videos and just repeats again and again their agenda - while anyone who really look can recognize that this is far far from truth.

Again look for youself - knife broken without any intention from Noss and you may see it in 3rd video around 8 minute.

Thanks, Vassili.

So then, your reason for repeating this 500 times and posting the exact some things in two different threads would be what?
OK for you? not for others?

Again am i the only one that sees the hypocrisy here?

 

[nozh2002]

So then, your reason for repeating this 500 times and posting the exact some things in two different threads would be what?
OK for you? not for others?

Again am i the only one that sees the hypocrisy here?

Please focus on subject - did you see that video?
Do you think he was destroying that knife when it break?

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[theonew]

I'm now sorry I created this thread, I was really hoping for just a show of hands and some exit poll thoughts. While there have been a few thoughtful posts, strident bickering seems to have overwhelmed this thread. Since we certainly don't need two of these slugfests I'm closing this one.