Value vs price... a slightly philosophical question.

H

Hardashell

Joined
Feb 1, 2018
Messages
29
Browsing folders is a infinite pleasure.
And the price can be anywhere from $10 - $1000 ( and more of course).

But what got me contemplating is; when do I pay more for the brand/designer than the material/quality?

”You get what tou pay for” is an old saying... but is a Marfione/Chuck Richards knife THAT much better than say a prizy expensive ZT? Or is the pricebump only motivated buy uniqeness/limited copies?

Where’s the line where the price no longer is for titanium material and premium steel... but for these other factors?

Pardon my rather hazy wonderings... :-)
Would be interesting to hear your thoughts.
 
Value is subjective; the percieved value of specific aspects of a knife will differ from person to person, often significantly.

Generally, there are materials that seem ill-fitted to certain price ranges - which can raise or lower the value to some.

Brand loyalty and name recognition can play a significant part in the percieved value as well. If CRK never existed and Kizer, Spyderco, or Benchmade had designed and released something identical to the CRK Sebenza, they would 100% not get away with charging $400+ for a Ti S35VN framelock, even if the build quality was identical. This also applies to Strider and Hinderer knives - name, reputation, and public perception are notable influences on the prices of things.

Similar example: Cheap sunglasses and “designer” sunglasses often have minor differences in materials and quality, but the price disparity in dollars is often greater than a factor of ten.

Rarity / scarcity is another factor to consider. Makers or manufacturers who have limited production capabilities or are using more expensive or difficult materials will necessarily charge more to justify the time and effort. Compounding that is the current level of desirability for any given shape, material, or mechanism. Ball bearings used to be an exotic sort of premium option, slipjoints (like GEC) used to have much lower values on the secondary market, etc - these things have changed due to fluctuations in perception and scarcity.
 
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Value is a complex issue that combines personal preferences with market comparison. Every feature on a product comes with an associated cost. A strong value provides equal-to-or-greater-than the number/quality of features as other market offerings for its price point. Basically, if you had a way of assigning an empirical "point value" to the various features based on their average per-unit cost given the variables of the configuration, and then divided them by the price, you'd have a value equal to or greater than one, while poor values would have values lower than 1. If that makes any sense. Basically it amounts to if you're getting a good deal for what the product is offering. This is why there are good values and bad values all across the price spectrum.
 
I hear you guys on the ”value is subjective”-perspective.
But that is to me a way of adding ”soft” valued to the reasoning.
Nothing wrong with that IMHO, but my thoughts around this topic was more hard facts-based... ie making a framelock titanium with best steel availible working smooth as hell... whats the fair max price for that? And when do I start paying for brand, reputation etc.

It’s all very fuzzy philosophy, haha.
 
Good question.

I suppose I personally define value, where folders are concerned, as:

(quality of materials + quality of finish)/$maker’s-brand

wherein $maker’s-brand is equal to:

reputation X good-experience

It’s a bit cheeky to present it this way, but it really does sum up my process pretty well.
 
DelialFallen said:
Good question.

I suppose I personally define value, where folders are concerned, as:

(quality of materials + quality of finish)/$maker’s-brand

wherein $maker’s-brand is equal to:

reputation X good-experience

It’s a bit cheeky to present it this way, but it really does sum up my process pretty well.
Click to expand...

Interesting aproach! I quite like it.

To me; i can drowl at knives from really high premium makers (say $500-900+) - but would never ever buy a knife for that money (if I dont siddently become lottery millionaire) because I cant motivate it to myself. The materials are often the same as premium knives in the $200-range.. and I cant imagine the durability, function and smoothness to be of that much better quality to motivate the huge price bump.

I guess the problem is I’m not ”collector enough” in this matter. One has to look at knives the way someone looks/treats art to be able to justify that kind of money.
 
I look at a knife and my knife value computer brain kicks in..... yes or no? Value or willfully inflated price? Most of the ones that appeal to me are in-between. So, it's yes, no, and maybe. Another question I ask myself is "Am I willing to use it?" I bought a TA Davison slipjoint and I still can't answer the last question. I just fondle in so far.
 
I guess one question I should add to ”me asking myself before purchase” is: whats it worth second hand?

Being able to sell it at a good price if I wish some day would, to me, motivate a more expensive knife.

I guess expensive knifes thats limited in copies can be a way of ”investing”.
 
Not to the specific opening question but to add a variable:

Materials being equal I am willing to pay a premium to a custom maker who handled every detail of the making of the knife - folder or fixed. Assuming of course that that maker produces an excellent fit and finish product. Hand forged can be a factor of added value but stock removal knives that are heat tempered properly by the maker - JK O1 blades for example - are no compromise whatsoever.

I am a woodworker who understands the process of handcrafting. I can hardly believe some of the truly high quality custom knives being sold in the $ 300.00 range. Factor in hours and materials, then S&H - those guys are working for love :thumbsup:. Having owned a few Hinderers, ZTs and some sprint run Spydercos, there is no comparison to the customs I have owned in the same price range. I barely look at Mid-techs anymore as serious purchases.

Just my 2¢.

Ray
 
At a certain point functional quality peaks, after that it's just design / looks and extravagance that you're getting for your money.
Quality wise, if the fit and finish is good, it functions properly, and quality components are used then that's as good as it gets.

If you find a knife or knives that do this for you which you are happy with, then I'd say the average price of such knives is your max and anything costing more isn't worth it as a cutting tool.

Remember nicer doesn't exactly mean better.

This is just my take however, and I'm one who's knives are simple cutting tools doesn't spend more on anything that doesn't make a knife work better.
 
Good posts.

I am pretty new to “good” knives and haven’t been able to justify paying more than $200 for one so far.

I have bass guitars that I paid $8k+ for, have owned $50k Lincoln and Mustang cars, bought $300 bottles of wine, etc., but I use all of my knives. I guess I have resale in the back of my head, but I don’t want to buy a $1000 knife just to look at.

In any case, you can get a great “super steel” knife with titanium for under $200, so any more $$$ than that I believe you are paying for name, incredibly tight manufacturing tolerances, rarity, etc.

I would love to own a Shiro, Chris Reeve, Hinderer or Medford, but my tiny brain wouldn’t let me use it as it should be used, and therefore I can’t justify it.

YMMV....
 
RayseM said:
Not to the specific opening question but to add a variable:

Materials being equal I am willing to pay a premium to a custom maker who handled every detail of the making of the knife - folder or fixed. Assuming of course that that maker produces an excellent fit and finish product. Hand forged can be a factor of added value but stock removal knives that are heat tempered properly by the maker - JK O1 blades for example - are no compromise whatsoever.

I am a woodworker who understands the process of handcrafting. I can hardly believe some of the truly high quality custom knives being sold in the $ 300.00 range. Factor in hours and materials, then S&H - those guys are working for love :thumbsup:. Having owned a few Hinderers, ZTs and some sprint run Spydercos, there is no comparison to the customs I have owned in the same price range. I barely look at Mid-techs anymore as serious purchases.

Just my 2¢.

Ray
Click to expand...
Woodworking is even worse than knives IME for “value”.

I have a great friend that makes amazing stuff and I can’t believe how he sells his stuff for so cheap. A kitchen table takes him dozens of hours to make and the materials ain’t cheap. Labour of love, I guess.

Prospective buyers often think he is a total asshole when he tells them to leave his shop and go to Ikea when they lowball him. Great guy, but people don’t get stuff takes time to make.

Not a derail, but he sells these kind of tables (huge and 1” reclaimed barnboards) for under a grand.... thing weighs about 100lbs. I doubt he makes a cent if he was on the clock at a normal job...

8A5D618B-C4C8-477A-90D4-CAE63C4ED526.jpeg
 
Comeuppance said:
Value is subjective; the percieved value of specific aspects of a knife will differ from person to person, often significantly.

Generally, there are materials that seem ill-fitted to certain price ranges - which can raise or lower the value to some.

Brand loyalty and name recognition can play a significant part in the percieved value as well. If CRK never existed and Kizer, Spyderco, or Benchmade had designed and released something identical to the CRK Sebenza, they would 100% not get away with charging $400+ for a Ti S35VN framelock, even if the build quality was identical. This also applies to Strider and Hinderer knives - name, reputation, and public perception are notable influences on the prices of things.

Similar example: Cheap sunglasses and “designer” sunglasses often have minor differences in materials and quality, but the price disparity in dollars is often greater than a factor of ten.

Rarity / scarcity is another factor to consider. Makers or manufacturers who have limited production capabilities or are using more expensive or difficult materials will necessarily charge more to justify the time and effort. Compounding that is the current level of desirability for any given shape, material, or mechanism. Ball bearings used to be an exotic sort of premium option, slipjoints (like GEC) used to have much lower values on the secondary market, etc - these things have changed due to fluctuations in perception and scarcity.
Click to expand...

+1
 
Hardashell said:
I hear you guys on the ”value is subjective”-perspective.
But that is to me a way of adding ”soft” valued to the reasoning.
Nothing wrong with that IMHO, but my thoughts around this topic was more hard facts-based... ie making a framelock titanium with best steel availible working smooth as hell... whats the fair max price for that? And when do I start paying for brand, reputation etc.

It’s all very fuzzy philosophy, haha.
Click to expand...


It just comes down to material and labor costs if you take out the more subjective “soft” value. You can’t really seperate “soft” value, though... ever. You’re ALWAYS paying for the brand, designer, public perception / demand, etc. Materials, labor, and the necessity for profit add a baseline cost, but even those are still dependent on the quantity and source of the materials the maker or manufacturer buys and their physical location with respect to the supplier. Additionally, the size of the knife makes a considerable difference, which just confounds things even further.

There really is no baseline that takes everything into account. There are just too many variables to make an useful scale - think of how many sliders we’re adjusting here on this imagined “objective value” calculator... It’s really just a futile exercise that spirals into infinite complexity pretty quickly.

You just have to look at what is being offered and make that judgement for yourself, because, let’s face it, you can’t look at the knife entirely objectively no matter how hard you try.
 
I'm with you questioning price vs value. I started a thread on this forum not that long ago about diminishing returns which asks basically the same question.
 
There are of course other factors to consider too. Two Ti knives with s35vn blades may vary wildly in material cost due to the manufacturing process. Things like contoured scales, integral construction, internal milling, etc. can drive prices up despite the materials not changing. Some shapes also don't tesselate well, increasing waste.

@NickShabazz does a good job of mentioning "soft" value features in his reviews. Things like customer service, warranty work, value retention, etc. Play a large role in my perceived value of an item.

Take my favorite knife for example: The ZT 0850
IMG_20180219_153047_465.jpg


It's at the top end of ZTs full production line at $320. It's worth every penny as far as I'm concerned, but I feel like I can trust it to last, maintain most of its value and I can count on ZT to remedy any issue that might arise.

If Bestech or Maxace, even Steel Will, made the same knife with the same materials, fit and finish I wouldn't touch it at anywhere near that price. I just don't trust it. Not yet anyway.

Call it soft value, reputation equity, brand loyalty, whatever... It's worth a lot.
 
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