Value vs price... a slightly philosophical question.

22-rimfire said:
Cold Steel Tuff Lite.... bought one (via the mail) and while it was okay, I really wasn't satisfied with it. The cost was low (~$30) and many would say it is a value leader. The knife simply didn't function smoothly and I looked for something better. ZT and Spyderco came to mind. Ended up getting a Spyderco Kiwi 4 which was 3 or 4x the price, but I like it a lot better. The Tuff Lite will not get used by me.... form was okay, bit the function did not measure up. Value only goes so far.
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I think you're missing out, the Tuff Lite is a great little knife. I'll admit they're a bit rough around the edges, I always take new ones apart and sand off all the sharp spots on the handles and then break the edges on the blade spine with a 320 grit stone. It takes a minute or two, but IMO it makes a world of difference. I own some $1k+ knives and the half dozen Tuff Lites and Tuff Lite Minis I own are still some of my favorite and most used knives.
 
When I first started collecting knives I got caught up in the "hype," in other words I based my purchasing decisions and built my collection off of what the majority of others in the knife community were obsessing over at any given time. I quickly learned that hype artificially inflates the price of knives and when collectors decided to move onto new brands, makers, models, etc., I would get burned and not be able recoup the money I put into the knife because of the inflated pricing. After being in this situation a few times I got fed up and learned to form my own opinions on what I wanted out of a knife. Never pay for hype, buy what you enjoy and avoid falling into the "flavor of the week" trap.
 
The value of a tool is based on its performance. The value of a knife is thus based on how well it cut.

The value of a high margin knife over a low margin knife would depend on how well one performs over the other.

Starting value begins with production costs for the product, that's mats, construction, skill, tooling, which would generally run the same across all knives in production.

Value then turns on how fast it goes. How far. How much it can cut. Brand reputation is determined by performance. Any brand, really.
 
Finding it interesting how a lot of poster's are justifying their purchases and the money they spend, rather than answering the OP's question of the difference between price and value. Yes, you are free to spend your money on what ever you like. And if buying something makes you happy, that means it has a higher value to you. One poster even said the higher the price, the happier he is. So it is safe to say money can buy happiness. lol

Actually, this really says that you believe you are getting a high value in return for the money you are spending. Fair enough. What ever floats your boat as they say. But the OP wasn't asking about that. Rather the topic was at what point do expensive pricy knives stop accounting for the justifiable higher cost of better steel, fit and finish.

IMO, that is where the intangibles add to the cost. What the buyer is willing to pay in our free market society, the maker is going to charge as much as he can and still sell enough knives to stay profitable and in business.

There is no exact price point where the tangible cost increases cease to be a factor and any additional price increases are not explained by the more expensive materials. HOWEVER, I will say that fit and finish can be a huge cost for a manufacturer to cover and produce. As I mentioned previously, a manufacturer has to decide at what level of fit and finish they want to provide. It is very easy to take it to the level that all the other mass producers do. Taking it to the level of the high end producers can be very expensive.

Put another way, getting 90% of the way to perfection can be really cheap. But that last 10% is always the most time consuming and expensive. Most people aren't willing to pay for it, and most manufacturers are unwilling to slow down and limit production to achieve it. Generally it is a lot easier to justify a higher price with BS (Marketing), Hype (Marketing), Hidden savings, (high end steel with cheap heat treat), or unique/outrageous/fad types of designs. (material costs stay the same, just changing the shape.)
 
evilgreg said:
I think you're missing out, the Tuff Lite is a great little knife. I'll admit they're a bit rough around the edges, I always take new ones apart and sand off all the sharp spots on the handles and then break the edges on the blade spine with a 320 grit stone. It takes a minute or two, but IMO it makes a world of difference. I own some $1k+ knives and the half dozen Tuff Lites and Tuff Lite Minis I own are still some of my favorite and most used knives.
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May need to work on mine. I really liked it when I first bought it and I used it. The using part is more than I can say for many knives I have acquired. I think "not get used by me" was putting it a little strong. I still recommend that knife for value. I brought up this particular knife here because I thought it a classic example of a popular knife that is considered to be a high value knife for the price. Rough Rider slip joints are the same (high value vs price). Don't mean expensive or what the resale value is. Never worry about the resale value personally (because to this point I never sell anything).

This thread is about value and price and where you personally set the break point to get the most value for the price. So many variables that is/are very difficult to say if you can afford the knife regardless. Most of us know that a $100 knife will likely be better than a $50 knife and $200 knife better than a $100 knife of the same genre. This is where serious diminishing returns kick in for me. I don't have a rigid answer for the question and just follow my gut. Sometimes I want a knife but the price simply pushes me away from choosing it even though I know it is a very good knife (CRK folders come to mind). I do think many of the CRK knives could use a steel upgrade for the price.
 
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This reminds me of the same discussions I have had for years with my fellow construction workers. I do everything from rough framing to one off cabinets when remodeling. I have a ton of money in tools... enough that I am uncomfortable. I buy capable, hard working tools that help me turn out a good product for me to use personally. For my guys, I don't buy the best of the lot but buy reliable, sturdy tools that I feel like I get a good bang for the buck. Things happen on a job site... tools walk off, they are left out in the rain, are used incorrectly, are handled roughly and are stolen.

So that's one consideration. The other is that I have to feel that intangible, non qualitative sense of value. A $550 DeWalt dual bevel sliding miter saw cuts within 5% of accuracy of the comparable Festool which is $1500. The Festool has a couple of neat innovations on it, is marginally easier to set up, and is lighter weight. The Festool is NEVER on sale, due to their marketing practices. When the DeWalt is on sale, I can get it for $500, or 1/3 the price of the Festool. The trims don't know what saw or saw blade cut them, and in my hands the end result is the same. It is prestigious as hell to have a Festool saw (or just about any of their tools!) but the utility isn't there for me.

But at one time I absolutely bought the very best I could afford because at one time there was a very direct correlation in the tool world about the money spent to the "work" or utility value of tools and how long they lasted in daily use. Not so much any more. I buy more tool than I need for my use and often have more than one tool for different dimensions of the same type of work. 5 circular saws, 4 miter saws, 17 nails guns, 4 routers, etc., since in my book not too many tools are actually "heavy duty" any more. I get a saw out of the truck just to get the saw done, and carry most of my work knives using the same logic.

The difference for me (and is similar to certain knives) is when I use MY personal saw (not one that belongs to my company) it puts a smile on my face. I like the power, the stability, and the accuracy my favorite tools bring to the table. Sometimes it is nice to just have nice things, something special, something that puts a smile on your face. I like using nice tools, and that includes my knives. A couple of my favorite knives are like that and I don't even own a knife that is all that expensive.

One of my good friends was an international pilot for years, and flew freight, people and anything else that required delivery. Sometimes his schedule was very complicated and he had to manage his time carefully. When he got his most prestigious job, he bought himself a beautiful Breitling Pilot's Chronometer. It was gorgeous, but he didn't wear it to work unless he had certain flights. I thought it would never leave his wrist as it cost as much as his motorcycle, about $6500 at the local jewelry store. I thought he wasn't wearing it because he didn't want it to be stolen or damaged, but that wasn't the case at all. He told me he wore his $80 Casio because it kept perfect time, had two alarms, and would set to atomic time automatically. And he couldn't kill it. The Breitling required a once a year maintenance at $400 each time, and the Casio had a 5 year battery in it and needed nothing.

But when he was off duty and went out to eat with the other pilots or crew, he always wore the Breitling since he took it with him in his flight bag. He loved the watch and loved showing it off. It just wasn't the best tool for the job. But he smiled when he looked at it, and while wearing he checked the time frequently.

Like I said, sometimes it is just nice to have nice things. No reason or justification required. If you have a knife that puts a smile on your face when you pick it up years after you bought it, still admire it from time to time, and like using it, how much money is too much for that knife?

Robert
 
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Charlie Mike said:
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So true. So true. Just look at the status and hype of the iPhone. My ex-wife messed up the screen of her iPhone 6s last year. The phone still worked but the screen was in poor shape. Her solution to the problem was to purchase the new iPhone X. My solution would have been a $125(or less) repair.

As for knives, my take has changed greatly over the last few years. It used to be that I had to have the latest and greatest. New blade steel? I want it. Carbon fiber scales? I want that. The latest model from brand Z? Yes, I'll buy that, too.

One problem was that my bank account had a different view on things. Another problem was that I ended up with knives that really did not meet my needs or lifestyle. And, I would never truly own the latest and greatest.

Now, I purchase knives based on the following:
1. Design/ergonomics, if the knife does not fit my hand, I don't buy it.

2. Materials/workmanship. If it does not meet certain standards I have, my wallet stays shut.

3. Manufacturer reputation/guarantee. If they don't stand behind it, chances are I won't buy it.

4. Value. Is the knife worth the asking price? I am finding that most of the time it is not when compared to what I already own. The slight upgrade over what I already own just isn't worth it. The Benchmade Bugout is a good example. I already own a BM531. Is the Bugout better? Yes. Is it worth the $115, considering I own the 531? Nope. But, if I ever lose the 531, I will replace it with the Bugout.:)

5. Status. Is that name or logo really worth an extra $150? Gee, that's a tough one. Most times the answer is no but, I am finding that many times you can be assured that numbers 1, 2, and 3 above are covered if you stick with name brand items.

With all that said, I would guess that I can normally get what I am after for less than $200. Three hundred tops. So, there you have it. It becomes pocket jewelry above that.
 
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OK, I read this again and I have to say it depends.
There are many offerings that satisfy my cutting needs these days (always depending on the task).
If I only needed a cutting tool, I'd be somewhere else now.
I'm in for more, that's what drives me. Am I immune to marketing? - No.
I experienced a few things and I learn something new every day - really.
If i look at a picture and someone points out a feature I didn't realize I ask myself "how could I miss that?"
This is another reason why I like brick and mortar stores and visit knife-shows.
 
Hardashell said:
Some $400-ish knives is described as EDC:s... oh my.. the rivers I would cry loosing it while playing with my kids
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Got six kids and always carried a clipped folder. Only knife I ever lost, crawling around in electronic junk at work, had no clip. Yes, my carry folders have generally been CRK...$400+. If you worry, and purposely don't carry them because you fear their loss...then don't get married if you fear divorce?
The "joy, pleasure, satisfaction" of each might well be worth the gamble.
 
Clearly people will pay more based on hype/cachet/brand status, on all sorts of goods.

With knives I think a good shorthand way to determine how a high a percentage of purchase price is coming from the name or status symbol side of things is this: how strongly does a cult-like following justify their purchases of the product post-purchase?

Someone who buys an expensive thing and feels totally comfortable in the value of their purchase is much less likely to spend hours defending Chris Reeve's honor or the amazing innovations of Apple (lol, look at the features they just invented in this new release that Android phones have had for years--amazing!) or whatever. They just use and enjoy whatever product it was, and when they chime in about their experiences they're being helpful, not waging a holy war.

I generally try to avoid buying into product cults just out of general distaste. I'd never choose to use an Apple product on my own, for example, because Apple pod-people zombies regurgitating the company marketing information as if they'd been hypnotized is just disturbing. They say "Apple products are easier to use, the design is so simple and perfect" like good little pod-people and then struggle with itunes for two hours trying to make it do something simple. Similarly, with knives the Shiro cultists have turned me off to Shiros and the CRK cultists have turned me off to CRKs, for example.

The cults I want to join are the low-key ones where people love product X but don't feel it necessary to white-knight the chosen one, to give a knife brand example I'd say something like Busse. The products are expensive luxury goods, but people who buy them don't seem nearly as driven to join an online holy war over them. They buy them, love them, use them, talk about them, but if you call them overpriced they might argue INFI magic or whatever, but mostly they're pretty okay with you not loving Busse and them still loving their Busse products. IMO, this is a sign that these are good but expensive products I might want to own.

Try the same thing with CRK people and you'll see full on pod-people meltdown. Say something like "Hey guys, what about this video showing that the locks on cheap knives are much stronger than the Sebenza" and the torches and pitchforks are grabbed up with rallying cries of "lock strength doesn't matter the holy one is perfect in all ways" or "you're not smart enough to appreciate the quick self-release lock feature as designed by our lord and savior, Chris Reeve my purchase choice is good and valid, this basic framelock with two micarta strips is worth $550". IMO, this is a sign that these products are over-hyped, and that a much larger chunk of every dollar you spend is going to hype than I personally like.
 
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There are also "overpriced" products that hold/increase in value.

Although I got hooked on the Rolex diver from watching Sean Connery as a young child. Always wanted the Bond watch before I knew what Rolex was.
 
Charlie Mike said:
There are also "overpriced" products that hold/increase in value.

Although I got hooked on the Rolex diver from watching Sean Connery as a young child. Always wanted the Bond watch before I knew what Rolex was.
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Totally true. Really, the more rabid the cult following a product has the better the resale value proposition is. Whenever someone asks "should I buy a Sebenza" I always say yes, and I don't even like the knives much--I just point out that if they want to scratch an expensive itch, a Sebenza (if purchased at a reasonable price) can be resold for not much less than you paid for it so why not take the leap?

Of course I also use the "they hold their value" argument to justify the silly number of guns I own but I rarely actually sell any of them. ;)
 
I view value in a simple way . The Price / Quality ratio determine the value
So if the price is moderate & the Quality is high = Good value .
price low / quality high = great value
price high / quality high = fair value etc... you get it ..

Now the price being paid is let's say your comfort level [ we all have our own levels] , the Perceived Quality is somewhat Subjective & often Skewed by advertising
or more often "reviews "

Even more difficult are the " intangibles" aesthetics , Ergonomics and as mentioned Branding .
What I think is not mentioned enough is Warranty - obviously important , not always considered
Kizer can be considered a good value price / quality ratio but the warranty or lack of downgrades the value
CRK on the other hand is lets say a fair value gets a boost to value with their warranty / customer support system -
 
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