Vanadis 4E as first build advice?

C

Chucktabulous

Joined
Jan 11, 2019
Messages
134
I'm thinking about biting off a bit more than maybe I should, but that's just my M/O.
.210 in 12.3 in 2.4 in Vanadis 4E steel from AKS for a chopper.
My tools were stolen but I still have a quality clamp and some friends with metal shops so I can cut out the shape and then I expect to spend a small eternity doing the details with files and the sending it out for the heat treat.
I'm a very detail oriented person and I know I could make a very good shape of a knife out of wood and I see no reason why I can't do it out of steel.
I know files will be maddeningly slow, but it's my reality now and I see it as a great zen type project for me.
I'm assuming someone out there offers a quality heat treat service for knives.
Scanning the sticky posts was a bit overwhelming for me and I'm probably touching on stuff that is covered in them... oops.
What are the files I should avoid and which ones should I get?
Should I make the blade to the precise shape before heat treat, or should I leave it a little thick so I can file or use diamond/ceramic stones to fare out any possible warping?
I THINK Vanadis 4E would be a great steel for a big chopper... am I wrong?
A million other questions for another time.
Any words of wisdom would be appreciated.
 
Well, lets say it is an ambitious project.

Some advice (IMHO):
.A 12.3" is not long enough for a camp chopper. That would give you a 7"+ blade at most. You might make a camp utility blade from that billet.
.210" is very thick for a 7" blade. .125" to .150" would be more than enough.

ADDED INFO: I was assuming this new maker was making a camp chopper, and the rest of this thread seems to be about competition choppers. You won't be making those with hand tools and limited skills.

If this is your first knife, there are probably other more suitable steels for the build. E4 isn't stainless, and besides it being very clean and an easy machining steel, it doesn't have any real advantage for a knife. If you want a simple stainless steel for your project, try CPM 154/154CM/ATS34 ( all basically the same). For a simple chopper that will be non-stainless, but extremely tough, try 3V.

Here is a comparison chart of common knife steels:
7fe55df7745ba17e3e7ab0df30cfeb2f_zpse5dba41a.jpg
 
Last edited:
Since you are lacking toolshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9iNDRwwBQQ I suggest you try building a "Gough Filing Jig"

When I think Chopper I picture 10" cutting surface which would be a light chopper in steel thickness you are looking at. A minimum of 16" overall length...as Stacy noted above you might have a 7" field knife with only 12" steel blank to start with.
 
.210" is a good thickness for a medium sized chopper but you're going to want a little more blade length to chop. I figure 9" blade length minimum.

V4E, and its sister steel CPM 4V, is a fantastic steel for the application

I think it files reasonably well, it doesn't work harden as badly as some stainless steels, but it's quite abrasive so your file will dull pretty quickly. I'd recommend grinding it.

There is no need to leave it thick and then thin it after heat treat. Take it to final thickness soft, you won't like working it hard.

Peter's HT probably has the best commercial HT for V4E in the industry.
 
It wouldn't recommend it for a first steel for a chopper.
Try 8670, easier to work with and very tough with good edge holding.

V4E would make a nice chopper, but with the tools you have it will take a long time to finish. A really long time. Especially after heat treating.
 
I poorly stated the thickness issue, and have worded it better. I was referring to a blade with 7" length. For that, .210" is very thick.
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
????? I hope that is a typo or a joke! You are a big guy Kevin, but that would be a metal club.
Click to expand...
Nope, not a joke. Big Chris's choppers are .4" thick lately and cut like the devil. The 2018 champ Dwayne Unger won with a chopper 3/8" at the spine. The last one I did was .3" thick. Many others Are making thick comp choppers. The benefit is really in the kinetic energy of higher weight. With the dimensional restrictions on comp blades ( 2" high, 10" long), the only way to up the weight is making thicker blades. There is no restriction on blade thickness per bladesports international regulations. Thought I had video of me making some cuts with this. It went through 3/4" hemp rope like it wasn't even there. Of course you have to be able to get the blade moving fast to reap the benefits, but even a chopper at .4" thick isn't all that heavy, especially if, like I do, you give the first 2/3 of the blade starting at the handle a pronounced swedge. You want that weight out front.
IMG_20180715_223625008~2.jpg IMG_20180611_164822887~2.jpg
 
This video has been seen by most of you I'm sure. This is Big Chris rocking one of his choppers in 4v. He told me it's .4" thick at the spine. I had reached out to him to find out where he sources 4v that thick.

 
Oops. I brain farted and didn't consider the tang. I'd like to have something with somewhere around a 12" blade, so I'm guessing that could be around 18-20ish" long.
Thanks for the input folks.
I'm going to stew on this a while and see what I think I can actually do.
 
Consider CPM M4, it is heavier steel due to the tungsten content which helps for chopping.
 
cotdt said:
Consider CPM M4, it is heavier steel due to the tungsten content which helps for chopping.
Click to expand...

But that isn't actually accurate. Perhaps you're thinking of something different?
 
Nathan the Machinist said:
But that isn't actually accurate. Perhaps you're thinking of something different?
Click to expand...

M4 has a tungsten content of 5.5% and a specific gravity of 7.97. This is denser/heavier than the other steels and an advantage in a chopping knife. Vanadis 4E is essentially the same steel as M4 but with tungsten content removed, which is not desirable. Its specific gravity is only 7.70.

In a big knife, that 100g of extra weight is going to make a difference.
 
Learn something new every day. My knife steel phone app doesn't say anything about tungsten in cpm m4, but Crucible's site sure does.
Would tungsten affect the difficulty of filing/grinding the steel?
I've always loved M4 but was just thinking of going off on a tangent.
Don't know if that really makes any sense but it seemed kinda interesting to me.
 
cotdt said:
M4 has a tungsten content of 5.5% and a specific gravity of 7.97. This is denser/heavier than the other steels and an advantage in a chopping knife. Vanadis 4E is essentially the same steel as M4 but with tungsten content removed, which is not desirable. Its specific gravity is only 7.70.

In a big knife, that 100g of extra weight is going to make a difference.
Click to expand...
C Mn Si Cr Mo V W
4V- 1.35 .4 .8 5 2.95 3.85 5.5
M4- 1.42 .3 0 4 5.52 4 0

At 5.5% Tungsten, in a 24oz blade that's 1.32 oz. I don't think that's going to have a whole lot of effect. There are a lot of other variables I'd be looking at before taking the weight of tungsten into account .
 
cotdt said:
M4 has a tungsten content of 5.5% and a specific gravity of 7.97. This is denser/heavier than the other steels and an advantage in a chopping knife. Vanadis 4E is essentially the same steel as M4 but with tungsten content removed, which is not desirable. Its specific gravity is only 7.70.

In a big knife, that 100g of extra weight is going to make a difference.
Click to expand...

Despite its tungsten content, CPM M4 is not particularly heavy. Plain unalloyed mild steel is heavier. But you are correct, V4E is less dense still. M4 is a little less than 1.05 X heavier than V4E, which it not huge but also not insignificant.

These steels are less dense than mild steel because martensite, the BCC structure with carbon physically stuck in it that makes steel hard, is less dense for much the same reason my sock drawer is less dense than Jo's.

When choosing a steel for choppers, the specific gravity of the steel generally isn't one of the primary considerations.

The last big competition knife race at Smoky Mountain Knife works had a good turn out and included a 2X6 chop which some folks (incorrectly) thought would favor the heavy knives, but men's white division, men's red division, the women's division and both challenge coins were all won (everything) with relatively light knives made of V4E. So when I say that I think that V4E is a good material for a chopper, this is what I'm talking about.
 
Kevin McGovern said:
The 2018 champ Dwayne Unger won with a chopper 3/8" at the spine.
Click to expand...

I think it should be pointed out that Unger's "win" was a win* with an asterisk attached to it. There was an unprecedented judging error that gave him that win that the governing body did not want to change after-the-fact (like a baseball game) but the reality is his real position wasn't first or even second place. Dan Keffeler properly won the 2018 world championship. This is common knowledge among the BladeSports people but maybe not common knowledge among the knife community.

Dan's knife is pretty thick at the spine, but not 3/8". He selected V4E for it.
 
Nathan the Machinist said:
I think it should be pointed out that Unger's "win" was a win* with an asterisk attached to it. There was an unprecedented judging error that gave him that win that the governing body did not want to change after-the-fact (like a baseball game) but the reality is his real position wasn't first or even second place. Dan Keffeler properly won the 2018 world championship. This is common knowledge among the BladeSports people but maybe not common knowledge among the knife community.

Dan's knife is pretty thick at the spine, but not 3/8". He selected V4E for it.
Click to expand...
No kidding! I didnt know he actually won it last year. I was there! Always rooting for dan. But I didnt stick around much after Unger won. (Friends thought i got lost lol, and got antsy).
He did put on quite the show! He seemed to visibly go through the course incredibly fast.

Hope to compete myself but using a different steel. But that's unrelated.

Seems like V4E and 4V are the 2 steels of choice as of late.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top