Got off the phone with Chuck Bybee a little while ago.....seems he got vanadium poisoning.. from cutting TITANIUM with his torch!! that little 4 in 6/4 has a V after it....and so do all the CPM steels... Is there anyone here who really KNOWS something about this? I dont want any old wives tales or urban legend stuff ok...just some facts. Thanks. Tom Mayo
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Vanadium Poisoning??????
- Thread starter tom mayo
- Start date
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Well, I went and looked it up. Most Vanadium poisoning seems to occur by breathing in fumes or dust. Symptoms are mainly redness of eyes, chronic cough and respiratory irritation and can also include diarrhea. Headaches are also common. Sounds like they can usually give you a drug that will clear it out of your system. People are occasionally known to die from it if they receive a big enough dose but these are usually miners who are mining it and lead.
Chuck needs to have a really good ventilation system and respiratory protection if he's going to keep messing with this stuff. I sure hope he's OK.
------------------
Peter Atwood
email: fountainman@hotmail.com
[This message has been edited by fountainman (edited 06-29-2001).]
Chuck needs to have a really good ventilation system and respiratory protection if he's going to keep messing with this stuff. I sure hope he's OK.
------------------
Peter Atwood
email: fountainman@hotmail.com
[This message has been edited by fountainman (edited 06-29-2001).]
Yep it can happen, I am medically retired from welding, same thing, metal poisioning.
I have been out of the shop for a little over a year, 2 weeks ago I welded up some supports for a church sign. Bam, it hit me all over again. No more for me.
MASK, where did I put the Mask.
Walt Whelch would probably be able to tell you more.
I have been out of the shop for a little over a year, 2 weeks ago I welded up some supports for a church sign. Bam, it hit me all over again. No more for me.
MASK, where did I put the Mask.
Walt Whelch would probably be able to tell you more.
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- 871
mikeS:
Ditto!
10 years heavy industrial welding of stuff like stainless and inconel in pre-heated conditions with inadequate ventilation and no respirator, two weeks in the hospital, permanent damage, end of welding career!
Metallic particles are NOT digestable!
Oh - and acetone will screw up your liver.
------------------
Tom Anderson
Hand Crafted Knives
www.andersoncustomknives.com
Ditto!
10 years heavy industrial welding of stuff like stainless and inconel in pre-heated conditions with inadequate ventilation and no respirator, two weeks in the hospital, permanent damage, end of welding career!
Metallic particles are NOT digestable!
Oh - and acetone will screw up your liver.
------------------
Tom Anderson
Hand Crafted Knives
www.andersoncustomknives.com
I think the fumes are the thing that we have to worry about the most....I dont know anyone who doesnt wear a good dust mask all the time....If you are reading this and you dont go out and buy a GOOD one right now. I have been grinding titanium regularly for over a year and a half now and noticed that sometimes I get a bad sinus condtion out of the blue and have been wondering if it could be related?? Chuck said the main thing you have to avoid is getting it hot enough to SMOKE! He was cutting it with a plasma torch but has switched to a big metal cutting bandsaw. Thanks. Any more info would be appreciated. Any good remedies for neutralizing this except drinking a lot of water?
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Tom,
Famous Grouse Scotch has always helped me with it
Seriously, I wear a North 7700 mask, use a good dust collection system, use a 990CFM double filtered dust box in the ceiling, and run the fan on the HVAC 24x7 and change the filter every Friday. I still worry about the dust.
Tom, I guess I better check it out, Tom. I grind 420V and titanium every day.
Famous Grouse Scotch has always helped me with it
Seriously, I wear a North 7700 mask, use a good dust collection system, use a 990CFM double filtered dust box in the ceiling, and run the fan on the HVAC 24x7 and change the filter every Friday. I still worry about the dust.
Tom, I guess I better check it out, Tom. I grind 420V and titanium every day.
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2001
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- 1,981
It isn't real explicit, but there is an article in the latest Blade about Vanadium poisoning. It mentioned a maker who did a lot of grinding of a steel with .2% vanadium in it, getting extremely ill, requiring hospitalization.
The article stated very strongly that vanadium is very toxic. Believe the word they used was "lethal."
I certainly would recommend using a setup like Kit's, and being as careful as possible not to expose yourself to any dust with vanadium in it.
This may sound silly, but I wonder how often a maker with an exhaust system, who uses a very good respirator, just takes off his mask immediately after grinding a blade with vanadium in it for a closer look, whatever. Might be well, to wait a couple minutes before removing the mask, and maybe even moving to a different part of the shop before removal also.
Just my $.02 worth.
The article stated very strongly that vanadium is very toxic. Believe the word they used was "lethal."
I certainly would recommend using a setup like Kit's, and being as careful as possible not to expose yourself to any dust with vanadium in it.
This may sound silly, but I wonder how often a maker with an exhaust system, who uses a very good respirator, just takes off his mask immediately after grinding a blade with vanadium in it for a closer look, whatever. Might be well, to wait a couple minutes before removing the mask, and maybe even moving to a different part of the shop before removal also.
Just my $.02 worth.
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- Oct 26, 2000
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- 2,468
Here's some excerpts from a lady who is a specialist in occupational chemical hazards:
The only way reasonable to get rid of it is to let the body do
it itself.
Chelation is not a recognized treatment for vanadium. And if he
was exposed
by inhalation as you say, the removal of the vanadium from the
body is not
the crucial question. It is: how much damage did it do to his
lungs and
mucous membranes in the nose when he was exposed? If the damage
to his lungs
was severe enough, this could be an ongoing problem throughout
his life. And
although vanadium has never been tested for its ability to cause
cancer, it
causes cell changes in the lining of the nose in workers that is
consistent
with increased risk of nasal sinus cancer.
You also ask about low dose chronic exposures and there is a lot
that is
unknown here. But most of the problems noted also are
respiratory with
development of chronic bronchitis or asthma being two.
I wouldn't worry your friend, but I would encourage him to get
regular
physicals from now on with special attention to the respiratory
system. His
lung capacity and condition should be monitored and any unusual
nose bleeds
or polyps in the nasal area should be investigated.
And, of course, all welders should be doing this anyway for
exposures other
than vanadium.
I would also warn your friend and other welders about some types
of vitamin
pills and dietary supplements that include vanadium. We get all
the vanadium
needed in our diets from natural sources and from environmental
pollution.
And watch out for "natural" healers who want to use chelation or
other
unstudied treatments for various metal exposures. We hear from
a lot of
people who have been harmed by these treatments. In addition,
people who use
these alternative treatments can compromise any future workers
compensation
claims.
The only way reasonable to get rid of it is to let the body do
it itself.
Chelation is not a recognized treatment for vanadium. And if he
was exposed
by inhalation as you say, the removal of the vanadium from the
body is not
the crucial question. It is: how much damage did it do to his
lungs and
mucous membranes in the nose when he was exposed? If the damage
to his lungs
was severe enough, this could be an ongoing problem throughout
his life. And
although vanadium has never been tested for its ability to cause
cancer, it
causes cell changes in the lining of the nose in workers that is
consistent
with increased risk of nasal sinus cancer.
You also ask about low dose chronic exposures and there is a lot
that is
unknown here. But most of the problems noted also are
respiratory with
development of chronic bronchitis or asthma being two.
I wouldn't worry your friend, but I would encourage him to get
regular
physicals from now on with special attention to the respiratory
system. His
lung capacity and condition should be monitored and any unusual
nose bleeds
or polyps in the nasal area should be investigated.
And, of course, all welders should be doing this anyway for
exposures other
than vanadium.
I would also warn your friend and other welders about some types
of vitamin
pills and dietary supplements that include vanadium. We get all
the vanadium
needed in our diets from natural sources and from environmental
pollution.
And watch out for "natural" healers who want to use chelation or
other
unstudied treatments for various metal exposures. We hear from
a lot of
people who have been harmed by these treatments. In addition,
people who use
these alternative treatments can compromise any future workers
compensation
claims.
Peter Atwood gave good basic info. Although chelate-inducing substances are not standard treatment, they can help, for example Deferoxamin. "Wirth/Gloxhuber: Toxikologie" (German toxicology reference book) also states that "high doses of Vitamin C are supposed to reduce the most toxic V (V) to less toxic V (IV)" (no further references cited).
From toxnet:
http://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/search/f?./temp/~BAA7saGlc:1:emerg http://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/search/f?./temp/~BAA7saGlc:1
More: http://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/
Take care!
From toxnet:
http://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/search/f?./temp/~BAA7saGlc:1:emerg http://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/search/f?./temp/~BAA7saGlc:1
More: http://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/
Take care!
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- Oct 26, 2000
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- 2,468
Thanks Judge. The more info we can arm ourselves with, the better off we'll be. Hope Chuck is doing well and also hoping that others will not find themselves in that situation.
- Joined
- Dec 16, 1998
- Messages
- 1,066
I'm an Industrial Hyginene/Occupational Safety specialist for a large consulting firm and if anyone in the community has questions or concerns I'll be happy to provide whatever information that I can, just E-mail me at mikecrenshaw@netscape.net.
The best way to protect yourselves from fumes/dusts/fibers is to have a good industrial ventilation system that sucks this stuff up at the work location before it gets into your system. These systems need not be complex or expensive (although the better they are the more expensive they tend to be). All you need is an airmover, a trap/filter, and a safe exhaust point (that's why the latrine is downstream of the camp). The changing of filters/cleaning of traps should be treated as just as great a hazard, if not more, as the grinding/cutting that you were protecting yourselves from.
Remember that if you have sufficient air flow to remove the fume/dust/fiber you reduce you risk of overexposure while doing the work.
Take care and let me know if I can be of any help.
Mike
The best way to protect yourselves from fumes/dusts/fibers is to have a good industrial ventilation system that sucks this stuff up at the work location before it gets into your system. These systems need not be complex or expensive (although the better they are the more expensive they tend to be). All you need is an airmover, a trap/filter, and a safe exhaust point (that's why the latrine is downstream of the camp). The changing of filters/cleaning of traps should be treated as just as great a hazard, if not more, as the grinding/cutting that you were protecting yourselves from.
Remember that if you have sufficient air flow to remove the fume/dust/fiber you reduce you risk of overexposure while doing the work.
Take care and let me know if I can be of any help.
Mike
- Joined
- Dec 16, 1998
- Messages
- 1,066
What you're dealing with is very small particles from welding/cutting/grinding that have routes of entry (ways to get into your system) primarily consisting of inhalation and ingestion (eat it). Your eyes won't be a source of entry. There can be problems associated with contact with the eye tissues, but all of this can be dealt with by the use of simple ventelation systems, some as simple as a pair of second hand shop vacs daisy chained together exhausting out of the shop (intake A at tool, exhaust A to intake B, filter unit, exhaust B to outside). You should always wear eye protection while you grind/cut/weld/solder (the second time I saw Mike Franklin he had a patch on) and using goggles that seal to your face will help prevent dust from getting to your eyes.
For those that wear a respirator, remember that you have to be clean shaven where the respirator seals to the skin of your face. Properly fitting half face respirators with the proper cartridge are considered to reduce your exposure to 1/10th what you would get without them. Notice I said "Properly fitting". If you don't have that "face seal" you'll have far less protection. The cartridge that you use for grinding/welding is not the same that you need for solvent based chemicals. You can get cartridges that handle both though.
And keep them clean. It doesn't do much good if you hang it in the shop and let it collect the stuff you're trying to protect yourself from then put it on. Wipe it down after you use it and put it in a clean Tupperware box or clean plastic bag. Take it apart when you change cartridges and wash it in cool soapy water and rinse it well and let it air dry before putting it back together. A clean one beats a dirty one any day.
I'll try to work up a batch of short health and safety tips and post them if ya'll think it would be of enough interest or I'll try to answer questions as they come.
Take care,
Mike
For those that wear a respirator, remember that you have to be clean shaven where the respirator seals to the skin of your face. Properly fitting half face respirators with the proper cartridge are considered to reduce your exposure to 1/10th what you would get without them. Notice I said "Properly fitting". If you don't have that "face seal" you'll have far less protection. The cartridge that you use for grinding/welding is not the same that you need for solvent based chemicals. You can get cartridges that handle both though.
And keep them clean. It doesn't do much good if you hang it in the shop and let it collect the stuff you're trying to protect yourself from then put it on. Wipe it down after you use it and put it in a clean Tupperware box or clean plastic bag. Take it apart when you change cartridges and wash it in cool soapy water and rinse it well and let it air dry before putting it back together. A clean one beats a dirty one any day.
I'll try to work up a batch of short health and safety tips and post them if ya'll think it would be of enough interest or I'll try to answer questions as they come.
Take care,
Mike
Mr HSO- I am not trying to start an argument...but Chuck got Vanadium poisoning from FUMES....not tiny particles..... Vaporized TITANIUM.. like when you grind it and all kinds of smoke comes off of it...or you cut it with a torch and it turns into VAPOR... Breathing the FUMES is much more hazardous than any particles.
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Tom, no problem, we're not talking about different things.
Here's a very good link to the Centers for Disease Control on Vanadium poisoning.
http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts58.html
The site itself is searchable for all sorts of materials and their health effects.
When you weld or torch cut you vaporize the metal. Those vapors immediately resolidify into very small particles that you can breath, usually as a metal oxide. Some studies indicate that the "fresher" the fumes are the greater the health impact. The particles resulting from fume condensation are particularly bad because they are easily breathed into the lungs, not to say that sawing/grinding dusts aren't harmful also, the particles you produce when you grind/saw are much bigger and may have a better chance of being filterd out.Usually, recovery from exposure occurs after a few days to a few weeks when you remove the exposed individual from the fumes.
The problem with almost all these fume exposures is that the effect can be cumulative and you can become sensitized to the material. Folks find that they get sick with smaller exposures over their work life as they are repeatedly exposed.
Different materials in different forms in different amounts make different people sick to different extents at different times.
The important thing is for folks to know what they are working with and what the possible problems are associated with these materials so that they can prevent exposures that cause illensses.
Good tool-site ventilation can remove respirable hazards before you have a chance of breathing them. Room cleaning filters just remove the stuff already in your breathing space. You can construct simple tool-site ventilation systems with cardboard shrouds and shop vacs venting outside. Two cast off shop vacs in series with the second filtering and venting outside can do a suprisingly good job or pulling hazardous fumes, mists and dusts away from you. (This isn't the system to use for solvents)
Keep asking questions and pointing out problems. It's the only way that anyone learns anything in this field.
Mike
Here's NIOSH's Vanadium fume information.
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npg/npgd0654.html
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/pel88/1314-62F.html
Here's a very good link to the Centers for Disease Control on Vanadium poisoning.
http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts58.html
The site itself is searchable for all sorts of materials and their health effects.
When you weld or torch cut you vaporize the metal. Those vapors immediately resolidify into very small particles that you can breath, usually as a metal oxide. Some studies indicate that the "fresher" the fumes are the greater the health impact. The particles resulting from fume condensation are particularly bad because they are easily breathed into the lungs, not to say that sawing/grinding dusts aren't harmful also, the particles you produce when you grind/saw are much bigger and may have a better chance of being filterd out.Usually, recovery from exposure occurs after a few days to a few weeks when you remove the exposed individual from the fumes.
The problem with almost all these fume exposures is that the effect can be cumulative and you can become sensitized to the material. Folks find that they get sick with smaller exposures over their work life as they are repeatedly exposed.
Different materials in different forms in different amounts make different people sick to different extents at different times.
The important thing is for folks to know what they are working with and what the possible problems are associated with these materials so that they can prevent exposures that cause illensses.
Good tool-site ventilation can remove respirable hazards before you have a chance of breathing them. Room cleaning filters just remove the stuff already in your breathing space. You can construct simple tool-site ventilation systems with cardboard shrouds and shop vacs venting outside. Two cast off shop vacs in series with the second filtering and venting outside can do a suprisingly good job or pulling hazardous fumes, mists and dusts away from you. (This isn't the system to use for solvents)
Keep asking questions and pointing out problems. It's the only way that anyone learns anything in this field.
Mike
Here's NIOSH's Vanadium fume information.
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npg/npgd0654.html
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/pel88/1314-62F.html
- Joined
- Dec 16, 1998
- Messages
- 1,066
A.T.
Take a look at this site.
http://www.twca.com/products/data/titanium/safety.htm
While Ti metal on it's own has low toxicity the dusts and shavings want to burn. If you're torch cutting the stuff it's going to form oxide that won't burn. If you're grinding, sawing, milling it you could produce fine enough pieces that they can burn.
e-mail me if you have any other questions.
Mike
Take a look at this site.
http://www.twca.com/products/data/titanium/safety.htm
While Ti metal on it's own has low toxicity the dusts and shavings want to burn. If you're torch cutting the stuff it's going to form oxide that won't burn. If you're grinding, sawing, milling it you could produce fine enough pieces that they can burn.
e-mail me if you have any other questions.
Mike
AT- I think you are doing what I used to when I first started using the stuff....you have to grind it SLOWLY on your variable speed with the speed slow enough so you are producing next to NO spark and NO smoke whatsoever. Tom/plus it makes your belts last way longer that way as the stuff never gets hot and thus no workhardening.