Variable Speed Ginder motors - source

daizee

Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
Joined
Dec 30, 2009
Messages
11,176
Hi All,

There be some building percolating at Rock'n'Roll Knife & Tool...

Do you grinding gurus have recommendations for any particular type, and most importantly, *source* for variable speed grinder motors? It will be for a 2x72 KMG or similar clone, and ideally more powerful than the 1.5HP DC that's on the existing machine.

Thanks!

-Daizee
 
I'm also interested. Was in the process of building a NWG with a loaner motor. Well, that motor no longer has the smoke inside it, soooo I'm looking now, too.

--Shannon
 
TEFC (totally enclosed fan-cooled) motors are the ticket. Try to get a C-frame motor as most direct mount grinders use the C-frame along with some other attachments, namely the work rest for Beaumont's disc grinder. For variable speed, you'll need 3 phase motors and a VFD to convert single phase 220V to three phase for the motor.

I run 2hp motors on my 2x72" grinders, and they work well. Wayne Coe has been recommended by several makers here, and he seems to have good prices on motors and VFD's.

--nathan
 
. . . or you could search eBay for a bargain on a DC motor. I've purchased two of these 2 hp Baldor DCP3585 DC motors on eBay for just over $130 each. LINK I've also purchased a drive for each of these motors for between $80 and $120, also on eBay. It just takes some time searching, and knowing what you want.

Good Luck,

Mike L.
 
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For a grinder, you are fine with a Totally Enclosed Fan Cooled motor, but Totally Enclosed Non-Ventilated motors are able to run at full torque at lower speeds without overheating, because they are not reliant on a fan for cooling. As a TEFC motor slows down, so does the cooling fan on the motor shaft, reducing the cooling airflow. If you find a TENV motor, don't dismiss it for not being TEFC.

It's the "Totally Enclosed" that's the must-have for a grinder.

I'm in the UK, where mains power is 230V AC at 50 Hz (50 cycles per second). This equates to 3000 cycles per minute.

A 2-pole motor has one pair of poles, so turns once every cycle, giving 3000 RPM (less "slip").

A 4-pole motor has 2 pairs of poles, so takes 2 cycles for a full revolution, giving 1500 RPM (less "slip").

A 6-pole motor takes 3 cycles per revolution for 1000 RPM.

North America is on 60 Hz mains, giving 3600, 1800 & 1200 RPM, less "slip".

Pretty much any motor you buy will be physically capable of running at 3600 RPM because manufacturing economics mean that standardising as much as possible gives the lowest cost.

The bearings, shaft, stator, etc will all be good to 3600 RPM, but in most cases, the electrical characteristics of the motor will limit the usable maximum speed to less than this on anything but a 2-pole motor.

The way a Variable-Frequency Drive works is by taking AC in, rectifying and smoothing it to DC, then using little slices of DC to synthesise a fair approximation of an AC sine-wave output with a frequency and voltage that is independent of the mains input.

The clever bit is that the frequency and voltage are variable.

Below the rated speed of the motor, both voltage and frequency usually vary linearly and the motor operates in "constant-torque" mode.

If we take a motor rated at 2HP, 1450 RPM, 50 Hz, 240V, and run it through a VFD, at 25 Hz, it will be turning at about 725 RPM at a voltage of 120V, and will be able to output 1 HP. The current, and with it the torque, will remain at the rated value, assuming the motor is loaded accordingly. Power is basically Volts x Amps x a constant.

Above the rated speed of the motor, the voltage is unable to increase further and the Volts x Amps is fixed. The motor therefore runs at "constant power", with the available torque falling off as the speed increases.

Usually, motor manufacturers recommend using 4-pole motors with VFDs and give a speed range of 10 Hz to 100 Hz. Of this, 10 Hz to 50 Hz is "constant torque" (about 300 RPM to 1500 RPM) and 50 Hz to 100 Hz is "constant power" (about 1500 to 3000 RPM). If the motor has ratings for both 50 Hz and 60 Hz, it's worth doing the sums to see which set of values gives the most area under the curve and using that one. I've tended to find the 50Hz values are usually, but not always, the ones to use.

There are "sensorless vector" drives available which employ some fairly fancy electronics and will allow smooth operation at lower speeds than 10 Hz. Offhand, I can't think of a knifemaking application that would need such low speeds, but I'm often wrong. There used to be a premium for SV 2 or 3 years ago, but I don't really see it now.

Most 3-phase motors are Totally Enclosed Fan Cooled. They use a fan mounted on the shaft to draw cooling air over the motor. As the shaft speed drops, the cooling airflow drops with it and a heavily-loaded motor running at low speed can overheat. Most of the stuff I've seen says you are fine down to 25 Hz on a 4-pole motor for continuous operation. Below that, it is necessary to reduce the motor load, reduce the duty cycle or provide additional cooling. In many cases all that's needed is for the user to be aware of the potential problem and have a bit of mechanical sympathy. If needed, it is possible to use a thermistor to sense the motor winding temperature and cut the power if it overheats. Some drives have the facility to take a thermistor input, otherwise a thermistor relay is needed.

As far as the drives themselves go, the best advice I can give is to do your homework and to go for a basic drive.

The high-end drives have lots of bells and whistles aimed at interfacing with industrial control systems. It's a fairly safe bet that you yourself will be the control system and that you'll interface with a start button, stop button and speed control knob. Basic drives do this very well and save you having to go through complicated menus, switching off the bells and whistles.

If you buy used on e-bay, make absolutely certain you know what you are getting and that it will do the job. Operator panels are a common problem. Many industrial drives come without them, mainly to stop the customer messing with the drive. Without one, you can't programme the drive.

Another thing to watch for is fan drives. Fans have Quadratic torque characteristics. This means that halving the fan speed only takes one eighth of the power. A drive specially designed for fans is utterly useless for anything else.
 
I got all my motors off fleabay. The most I paid for a motor was $250 delivered. If you want standard 5/8" shaft go for 56c frame tefc. I like heavier shafts so I go for 146 frame iirc. They have 7/8" shafts and some even have 1". Bets deal I got was 2 washdown rated motors 1hp and 1:5hp delivered for $150.
 
I got all my motors off fleabay. The most I paid for a motor was $250 delivered. If you want standard 5/8" shaft go for 56c frame tefc. I like heavier shafts so I go for 146 frame iirc. They have 7/8" shafts and some even have 1". Bets deal I got was 2 washdown rated motors 1hp and 1:5hp delivered for $150.

I got a heavy DC motor with a 7/8" shaft, more or less by happenstance. It has a large C frame and no feet. I plan on using using for direct drive on a NWG affair. My cousin bored out an aluminum wheel and re keyed it to fit the larger shaft. Got any suggestions for rigging up a mount for the sucker?

BTW, got it cheap on eBay.
 
I've had good luck with a 2hp 3ph tefc leeson off of ebay for $120 shipped. There are deals there. I had good luck going to a local junkyard, found a 3hp 3ph tefc Marathon for $65, in new shape. I found a 3hp 3ph Baldor open frame in the scrap at an HVAC contractor, free and works fine. I just keep it blown out. I've seen that machine and welding shops will fairly often have salvage motors they might sell you, I've found a 2hp 3ph at a sawmill as well.

You might try surpluscenter.com as well, they often have decent prices on new surplus 3ph. motors.
 
Phil. I used a rotary table to mill a c-face plate. Basically mill out the pocket and drill a bolt circle. Then I welded it to a base making a 90deg angle. Milled slots in the base and mounted it to my mill table. This was for my last disc grinder I made. If I remember I will take pics tomorrow. The heavy shafts make it really nice. Also not as many people want the heavy shaft motors. Everyone wants the 56c frame. So the heavy shafts go really cheap. The last great deal I got was a slightly used 5hp with a 7/8 shaft for $150 delivered. It is now the secondary motor on my KMG clone. The 3phase motors run forever then they can be rewound and new bearings put in real cheap. Less than $200 iirc.
 
I've used a cutting torch in the past to cut the circle for a c-frame mount plate, drilled the four bolt holes, welded 90 degrees to a baseplate.
 
I've used a cutting torch in the past to cut the circle for a c-frame mount plate, drilled the four bolt holes, welded 90 degrees to a baseplate.
That's about what I'll have to do, but it won't look pretty. Guess I would have to cut a bigger circle so it sat outside of the raised rim on the motor face. Presumable that sits in a groove on the mounting face?

Chuck, your solution sounds slick. If you can snap a pic or two that would be grand.
 
This info is great and needs to be in a sticky.
For a grinder, you are fine with a Totally Enclosed Fan Cooled motor, but Totally Enclosed Non-Ventilated motors are able to run at full torque at lower speeds without overheating, because they are not reliant on a fan for cooling. As a TEFC motor slows down, so does the cooling fan on the motor shaft, reducing the cooling airflow. If you find a TENV motor, don't dismiss it for not being TEFC.

It's the "Totally Enclosed" that's the must-have for a grinder.

I'm in the UK, where mains power is 230V AC at 50 Hz (50 cycles per second). This equates to 3000 cycles per minute.

A 2-pole motor has one pair of poles, so turns once every cycle, giving 3000 RPM (less "slip").

A 4-pole motor has 2 pairs of poles, so takes 2 cycles for a full revolution, giving 1500 RPM (less "slip").

A 6-pole motor takes 3 cycles per revolution for 1000 RPM.

North America is on 60 Hz mains, giving 3600, 1800 & 1200 RPM, less "slip".

Pretty much any motor you buy will be physically capable of running at 3600 RPM because manufacturing economics mean that standardising as much as possible gives the lowest cost.

The bearings, shaft, stator, etc will all be good to 3600 RPM, but in most cases, the electrical characteristics of the motor will limit the usable maximum speed to less than this on anything but a 2-pole motor.

The way a Variable-Frequency Drive works is by taking AC in, rectifying and smoothing it to DC, then using little slices of DC to synthesise a fair approximation of an AC sine-wave output with a frequency and voltage that is independent of the mains input.

The clever bit is that the frequency and voltage are variable.

Below the rated speed of the motor, both voltage and frequency usually vary linearly and the motor operates in "constant-torque" mode.

If we take a motor rated at 2HP, 1450 RPM, 50 Hz, 240V, and run it through a VFD, at 25 Hz, it will be turning at about 725 RPM at a voltage of 120V, and will be able to output 1 HP. The current, and with it the torque, will remain at the rated value, assuming the motor is loaded accordingly. Power is basically Volts x Amps x a constant.

Above the rated speed of the motor, the voltage is unable to increase further and the Volts x Amps is fixed. The motor therefore runs at "constant power", with the available torque falling off as the speed increases.

Usually, motor manufacturers recommend using 4-pole motors with VFDs and give a speed range of 10 Hz to 100 Hz. Of this, 10 Hz to 50 Hz is "constant torque" (about 300 RPM to 1500 RPM) and 50 Hz to 100 Hz is "constant power" (about 1500 to 3000 RPM). If the motor has ratings for both 50 Hz and 60 Hz, it's worth doing the sums to see which set of values gives the most area under the curve and using that one. I've tended to find the 50Hz values are usually, but not always, the ones to use.

There are "sensorless vector" drives available which employ some fairly fancy electronics and will allow smooth operation at lower speeds than 10 Hz. Offhand, I can't think of a knifemaking application that would need such low speeds, but I'm often wrong. There used to be a premium for SV 2 or 3 years ago, but I don't really see it now.

Most 3-phase motors are Totally Enclosed Fan Cooled. They use a fan mounted on the shaft to draw cooling air over the motor. As the shaft speed drops, the cooling airflow drops with it and a heavily-loaded motor running at low speed can overheat. Most of the stuff I've seen says you are fine down to 25 Hz on a 4-pole motor for continuous operation. Below that, it is necessary to reduce the motor load, reduce the duty cycle or provide additional cooling. In many cases all that's needed is for the user to be aware of the potential problem and have a bit of mechanical sympathy. If needed, it is possible to use a thermistor to sense the motor winding temperature and cut the power if it overheats. Some drives have the facility to take a thermistor input, otherwise a thermistor relay is needed.

As far as the drives themselves go, the best advice I can give is to do your homework and to go for a basic drive.

The high-end drives have lots of bells and whistles aimed at interfacing with industrial control systems. It's a fairly safe bet that you yourself will be the control system and that you'll interface with a start button, stop button and speed control knob. Basic drives do this very well and save you having to go through complicated menus, switching off the bells and whistles.

If you buy used on e-bay, make absolutely certain you know what you are getting and that it will do the job. Operator panels are a common problem. Many industrial drives come without them, mainly to stop the customer messing with the drive. Without one, you can't programme the drive.

Another thing to watch for is fan drives. Fans have Quadratic torque characteristics. This means that halving the fan speed only takes one eighth of the power. A drive specially designed for fans is utterly useless for anything else.
 
Thanks for all the info, guys!
A motor has been ordered, 3HP, all industrial-like. I have yet to see it or get all the details.


-Daizee
 
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