VFD Motor Combo for New 2" x 72"

J

Jrmysell

Joined
May 18, 2014
Messages
548
So, a little background, I am a veterinary student right now and am about to transfer to probably Oklahoma State for my clinical year. I have been making knives during breaks for the past 6-7 years on a HF 1" x 30". I have some money saved and am going to make the plunge for a 2" x 72". I have looked at pretty much every grinder out there and plans for making my own and I think what is best for me is a Pheer 454. I have e-mailed Jose about getting a chassis and flat platen and for the cost, I would be spending almost as much to build my own using the EERF plans, NWGS plans (which I purchased a couple years ago) or the GIB package. At most I'd be saving about $100. So, I think I'm going with the Pheer.
I want to go with the full variable speed setup correctly so I've been reading about VFDs and Motors and I think what I have decided on are these:

VFD: KBAC-27D 2HP NEMA 4X Analog 115/230VAC 9520
http://www.electricmotorwholesale.com/9520-KBAC-27D/
I want the forward/stop/reverse switch and I think I'll need the watertight fittings, but I'm not sure on the other options. What do the "On/Off AC Line Switch", "Signal Isolator" or "AC Line Filter" mean/do and do I need them?

Motor: 1.5HP 3PH TEFC 56C 1800RPM 208-230/460V Inverter Rated1.15 Service Factor and removable feet
http://www.ebay.com/itm/321942121941?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT
Will this motor work?

Also, what size drive wheel should I get. From most of what I have read I think a 6" would be best, but I'm not 100%.

I'll be running 110V as I've been working out of my grandparent's garage as I've been in school and don't own my own place yet. I eventually want 220 and will upgrade to a 2HP motor then and may convert this motor to a disc grinder motor or may just make/buy another 2x72 and buy a 1HP for the disc grinder. But for now, I'm stuck with 110V for a while.
I also think I'm going to get a small wheel attachment and will add the contact wheel in the future.
So does everything look ok?
 
If you click the optional acc tab on the KB page, it explains what the parts you're asking about do/are for:

On/Off AC Line Switch – P/N: 9482, Disconnects the AC line. Mounts on the enclosure cover and is supplied with a switch seal to maintain liquidtight integrity.

Forward-Stop-Reverse Switch – P/N: 9480, Provides motor reversing and stop functions. Mounts on the enclosure cover and is supplied with a switch seal to maintain liquidtight integrity.

Run-Stop-Jog Switch – P/N: 9340, Selects speed setting from either the Main Speed Potentiometer or the JOG Trimpot. Mounts on the enclosure cover and is supplied with a switch seal to maintain liquidtight integrity.

Signal Isolator – P/N: 9600, Provides isolation between a non-isolated signal source and the drive. Mounts on the drive’s PC board with four snap-ins.

Auto/Manual Switch – P/N: 9481, When used with the Signal Isolator, it selects remote process signal or the Main Speed Potentiometer. Mounts on the enclosure cover and is supplied with a switch seal to maintain liquidtight integrity.

AC Line Filter – P/N: 9507, (Factory Installed) Provides Class A RFI (EMI) suppression.

Liquidtight Fittings - P/N: 9526, Provides a liquid-tight seal for wiring the drive. Kit includes necessary liquid-tight fittings

*Warning! It is highly recommended that the Signal Isolator (Part No. 9600) be installed when using the drive with external control signals.


Basically, the on/off AC line switch is a power switch for the VFD. As it's stocked, it's only supplied with a forward/stop switch. I like having the AC line switch on my drives so that the power is not always on, and I don't have to unplug it, or turn off a breaker to cut power.

You really shouldn't need a signal isolator or a line filter for this application.

That motor will work just fine. As for drive wheel size, I'd set the VFD to run up to 2x speed and go with a 5" drive wheel. Some guys prefer 6" for doing really fast hogging and such, but I've never really felt that 5" was too slow. YMMV, and neither is a bad choice.
 
Jrmysell said:
So, a little background, I am a veterinary student right now and am about to transfer to probably Oklahoma State for my clinical year. I have been making knives during breaks for the past 6-7 years on a HF 1" x 30". I have some money saved and am going to make the plunge for a 2" x 72". I have looked at pretty much every grinder out there and plans for making my own and I think what is best for me is a Pheer 454. I have e-mailed Jose about getting a chassis and flat platen and for the cost, I would be spending almost as much to build my own using the EERF plans, NWGS plans (which I purchased a couple years ago) or the GIB package. At most I'd be saving about $100. So, I think I'm going with the Pheer.
I want to go with the full variable speed setup correctly so I've been reading about VFDs and Motors and I think what I have decided on are these:

VFD: KBAC-27D 2HP NEMA 4X Analog 115/230VAC 9520 an OK choice, but it needs 25 amp 115v service to use. it's max draw is 22amps, so you will need 10gauge power wiring. 99.9% of houses are not wired this way. a remote on/off and direction switch is easily wired, as is remote speed control. unless you plan on hosing your work bench down on a regular basis, i see no need for watertight fittings.
http://www.electricmotorwholesale.com/9520-KBAC-27D/
I want the forward/stop/reverse switch and I think I'll need the watertight fittings, but I'm not sure on the other options. What do the "On/Off AC Line Switch", "Signal Isolator" or "AC Line Filter" mean/do and do I need them?

Motor: 1.5HP 3PH TEFC 56C 1800RPM 208-230/460V Inverter Rated1.15 Service Factor and removable feet
http://www.ebay.com/itm/321942121941?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT
Will this motor work? motor will work fine. but what are you going to drive it with?

Also, what size drive wheel should I get. From most of what I have read I think a 6" would be best, but I'm not 100%. a 6" will work ok, hunt for a 3" as well as that will double your speed range

I'll be running 110V as I've been working out of my grandparent's garage as I've been in school and don't own my own place yet. I eventually want 220 and will upgrade to a 2HP motor then and may convert this motor to a disc grinder motor or may just make/buy another 2x72 and buy a 1HP for the disc grinder. But for now, I'm stuck with 110V for a while.
I also think I'm going to get a small wheel attachment and will add the contact wheel in the future.
So does everything look ok?
Click to expand...
buy a 1Hp setup to start. your key words "stuck with 110V". this combo would work ok http://dealerselectric.com/1-HP-1800-RPM-115-Volts-Input-Package-2.asp and is less than $300 delivered. will work great for disc sander.
Where is the laundry room? I ran my grinders using the dryer outlet, which is usually 220 at either 30 or 40 amps.
 
scott.livesey said:
buy a 1Hp setup to start. your key words "stuck with 110V". this combo would work ok http://dealerselectric.com/1-HP-1800-RPM-115-Volts-Input-Package-2.asp and is less than $300 delivered. will work great for disc sander.
Where is the laundry room? I ran my grinders using the dryer outlet, which is usually 220 at either 30 or 40 amps.
Click to expand...

No reason not to go with the setup he's already listed. 110vac will run a 1.5hp motor through the kbac, and he can upgrade to 2hp when he gets a 220vac feed, if it even becomes necessary.
 
knife to a gunfight said:
No reason not to go with the setup he's already listed. 110vac will run a 1.5hp motor through the kbac, and he can upgrade to 2hp when he gets a 220vac feed, if it even becomes necessary.
Click to expand...
READ page 10 of the KBAC-27D operating instructions. The owner's manual requires 25amp 115v service and appropriate wiring. you run it on anything less, you void warranties and release kb from any liability when something happens. you probably also void your home owner's insurance. saying "it's ok, it will just blow a breaker once and a while" is dangerous and not the kind of advise that should given to beginners.
 
scott.livesey said:
READ page 10 of the KBAC-27D operating instructions. The owner's manual requires 25amp 115v service and appropriate wiring. you run it on anything less, you void warranties and release kb from any liability when something happens. you probably also void your home owner's insurance. saying "it's ok, it will just blow a breaker once and a while" is dangerous and not the kind of advise that should given to beginners.
Click to expand...

I don't necessarily disagree with what you're saying, and should probably preface the following by saying I am NOT a licensed electrician, but I stayed at a Holiday Inn once. My advice is worth exactly what's being paid for it, and I do encourage the OP not to rely solely on my advice or experience;

Yes, the manual does recommend a 25amp service for running a 1.5hp motor on the 115vac jumper setting. Going by the book, this would require a 25amp breaker and at least 10AWG wire depending on distance from the load center.
That said, I would PERSONALLY be more than comfortable running OP's listed setup on a 20amp breaker, and very highly doubt it would ever trip the circuit breaker at all, assuming there's not already load on the circuit before powering or running the VFD. This is also assuming that you're not trying to run it off of a 100ft extension cord.
I understand the following statement is not particularly an "excuse", BUT there are a lot of makers running this setup, and I'd wager that very few have it on a 25-30 amp breaker. In fact, I'm guessing a large number are probably running off only a 15 amp breaker, though I would think that's definitely pushing it.

Now, I will say that I personally prefer to run my VFDs on 220vac in most cases, but again, I would feel absolutely fine with a dedicated (i.e., otherwise empty) 20amp, 115vac circuit. You could put a clamp meter on your hot lead at the panel to double check, though I understand this is beyond the comfort level of most DIY'ers.

Again, I'm not a licensed electrician, and you may not hear the same advice if you call a KB service rep, but it can be done. Whether it should be? Well, that's ultimately up to the OP.
 
scott.livesey said:
READ page 10 of the KBAC-27D operating instructions. The owner's manual requires 25amp 115v service and appropriate wiring. you run it on anything less, you void warranties and release kb from any liability when something happens. you probably also void your home owner's insurance. saying "it's ok, it will just blow a breaker once and a while" is dangerous and not the kind of advise that should given to beginners.
Click to expand...

I don't see it
Is it in this manual? Where?
http://www.kbelectronics.com/manuals/kbac_manual.pdf

Found it, it's in here.
http://www.kbelectronics.com/manuals/kbac.pdf

I think, compared to pumping water, or other heavy loads - grinders don't load the motors much.
I've never blown a breaker, but then I use a light touch.
 
I can't help the OP but I have a question that has been answered many times.
Running a 3 phase 2 hp motor on 110, using a Kbac 27. The drive runs the motor at 1 1/2 hp? I couldn't find that exact answer. Thanks
 
rjedoaks said:
I can't help the OP but I have a question that has been answered many times.
Running a 3 phase 2 hp motor on 110, using a Kbac 27. The drive runs the motor at 1 1/2 hp? I couldn't find that exact answer. Thanks
Click to expand...

Page 4 of KBAC manual paragraph 1.1
4
1
QUICK-START INSTRUCTIONS
Important – You must read these simplified instructions before proceeding. These instructions
are to be used as a reference only and are not intended to replace the details provided herein.
You must read the Safety Warning on page 5 before proceeding.
Reconditioning the Bus Capacitors
–
If this drive has been in storage for over one year, it is
necessary to recondition the power supply bus capacitors. To recondition the bus capacitors, apply the
AC Line with the drive in the Stop Mode for a minimum of one hour. Not following this procedure will
cause the bus capacitors to fail.
See Figure 1. Also see Section 4 - Important Application Information on Page 18.
WARNING! Disconnect main power before making connections to the drive.
1.1
AC Line Input Connection –
Wire the AC Line input to Terminal Block TB1. See Section 5.1
on pages 19 and 20.
Application Note: GFCI Operation: Models KBAC-24D, 27D, 29, 29 (1P), 45, 48 require custom
software – contact our Sales Department. The KBAC-217, 416 Series are jumper selectable
(J12) for Standard (G1) or Sensitive (G2) GFCIs.
Note:
The rated AC Line voltage of the drive must match the actual AC Line input voltage. On Models
KBAC-24D and 27D, the setting of Jumper J1 must match the AC Line input voltage.
Models KBAC-24D, 27D, 29 (1P):
Designed to accept 1-phase (Terminals L1, L2) AC Line input
only. Rated for 208/230 Volt AC Line input with Jumper J1 set to the “230V” position
(factory setting). Rated for 115 Volt AC Line input with Jumper J1 set to the “115V” position.
See Figure 10 on page 20.
Note:
Model KBAC-27D is rated for 11⁄2 HP maximum with 115 Volt AC Line input and 2 HP maximum
with 208/230 Volt AC Line input.
Model KBAC-29:
Designed to accept 1-phase (Terminals L1, L2) or 3-phase (Terminals L1, L2, L3)
AC Line input. Rated for 208/230 Volt AC Line input only. See
 
Natlek said:
Sorry for derail your topic OP , but did EVERY 3-phase motor CAN work with VFD ?
Click to expand...
As long as the motor is rated at or below the rated hp of the VFD, and the output voltage is matched to the motor, then yes, most will work. Example: you can run a 1hp motor on a 2hp vfd, but shouldn't run a 3hp motor on a 2hp VFD. The output voltage of the VFD needs to match the motor as well. You can't run a 480VAC motor on a 220VAC output VFD, etc...

Also, not all motors SHOULD be used with a VFD (also known as an inverter) as the VFD can tend to overheat the windings, insulation, etc... especially if run consistently at low speeds where the fan is not going to be sufficiently cooling the motor, as they are designed to cool more at full speed. Some motors are, however, "inverter rated", which typically just means that they have heavier windings and insulation, and take heat a little better.
 
knife to a gunfight said:
As long as the motor is rated at or below the rated hp of the VFD, and the output voltage is matched to the motor, then yes, most will work. Example: you can run a 1hp motor on a 2hp vfd, but shouldn't run a 3hp motor on a 2hp VFD. The output voltage of the VFD needs to match the motor as well. You can't run a 480VAC motor on a 220VAC output VFD, etc...

Also, not all motors SHOULD be used with a VFD (also known as an inverter) as the VFD can tend to overheat the windings, insulation, etc... especially if run consistently at low speeds where the fan is not going to be sufficiently cooling the motor, as they are designed to cool more at full speed. Some motors are, however, "inverter rated", which typically just means that they have heavier windings and insulation, and take heat a little better.
Click to expand...

Thanks for explanation . Bolded part is what I want to know . Is there any way to know which motor is inverter rated or it is always outlined on sticker?
 
Natlek said:
Thanks for explanation . Bolded part is what I want to know . Is there any way to know which motor is inverter rated or it is always outlined on sticker?
Click to expand...
It is sometimes on the sticker or often included in the manufacturer specs. You can also look at insulation grade, which is USUALLY on the nameplate. IIRC, inverter duty is typically around class F, but don't quote me on that.
 
Excuse me that I'm boring .I have just one more question .I have 3 - phase 2 HP , 50Hz and 2820 rpm motor and probaly not inverter rated . Can I run this motor with VFD say on max 70 HZ and how much speed I will get ? I will never use VFD to slow down this motor . I need more speed if is that possible from this motor without damage ?? It will run direct drive , that's way I need more speed ........
I just found this on net ............. ?

If the motor is a 50Hz unit and you're going to be using it in 60Hz-land it will spin 20% faster.
Horsepower(hp) is proportional to Torque times RPM. Since the motor's torque is not going to change appreciably with an increase in frequency it will now provide 20% more hp. Your 8hp motor just got promoted to being a 10hp motor. Something for almost nothing!

But wait! Spinning a load 20% faster is very likely going to increase its power demand by at least 20%! If the load cyclically accelerates or decelerates in operation it will be subject to greater mechanical forces. Too much? If the motor is driving centrifugal loads their demand may even go up by the square of the speed increase. Centrifugal pumps would be an example of this. Fans, depending on their style, can also experience a squared increase in demand.

A bright spot in this is that the motor's cooling fan is a centrifugal fan that will move much more air.

The motor's V/Hz goes down when up-frequencying a motor, informing us that the magnetic circuit will have no trouble carrying the increased load. We're good there.
 
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Not sure on that as I'm not really good with electrical hence my original questions, but just a slight correction, 20% of 8hp would only be 9.6, not 10.
 
I was talking with my dad about the grinder and getting a heat treat oven (leaning towards a paragon), but they are 220V. The dryer outlet is about 6 ft from the door to the garage, so I'd need at least a 10ft extension and I think more would be better to use with the grinder so it's not right by the door to the house. I used the google search for here and most people agree that a 10/3 cord is best. My new question is, which kind? I found on Lowe's website that the have for around $1.60ish a foot 10/3 cord in both SOOW and SJOOW. They were within a couple cents of each other by the foot, but which do I need? I looked them up and the J is rated for 300V and the non-J is 600V. Is that a max rating and get whichever is cheaper? Or are they the complete wrong kind of wire?
And based on this, I think I'm going to bump up to the 2 hp motor from the same eBay store as the one in the link. It's about $15 more than the 1.5hp model, but the other specs (that I can tell anyway) are the same.
 
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