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VG-1 steel?
- Thread starter ryosuke
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Cliff Stamp
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rifon2 said:
There was no mention of such extreme use in my last post, I gave two examples of cutting cardboard and how the requirements of the user will change which steel is optimal. Getting specific look at the following link and specifically compare the advantage BG-42 has over 420HC which both have the Edge 2000 process. Note how the advantage of BG-42 is minimal if you keep your blades cutting very sharp :
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=421313
Then consider all the disadvantges of BG-42, cost, harder to grind, lower corrosion resistance, toughness, etc. . Further still look at the 440C vs 420HC data provided there and then ask your dealer which is a better steel. Now show them those CATRA results and ask them them if they have any experience which contradicts it or are they just repeating what they heard someone else say in order to sell the products which feature those steels.
If you don't like CATRA results because machines are too abstract, then read Landes work who says the same thing, as does Verhoeven and so does Johnston - in principle. Forget about the specific steels they are talking about and look at the characteristics of those steels and how they influence behavior. This is why people who like low alloy carbon steels like 52100 will praise the Sandvik steels because they have very similar properties.
As for what makers use - this will always be influenced strongly by public perception and that should be obvious. I can guarantee, without any doubt that you will see more and more makers offering the fine carbide steels as it becomes more publically known that high carbide steels have problems in regards to optimal performance as a cutting steel for obtaining and keeping a high sharpness, in addition to issue with toughness.
Right now the main focus is pretty much all about maximal carbide fraction hence people will say for example S60V is a much better steel than ATS-34. However the edge stability of ATS-34 is actually slightly higher and thus it will get sharper and hold that high sharpness longer, S60V just stays blunter for longer. ATS-34 isn't a great example of that type of steel of course as it also has a high carbide fraction of very large carbides but it is better in that regard than S60V.
-Cliff
Larrin
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To use the VG series of steels, it needs to be manufactured in Japan, unless the company wants to jump through a bunch of hoops and bring their costs up to amounts that aren't worth it. That's why you can't buy an American made Spyderco that uses VG-10.rifon2 said:
Larrin said:
Interesting.
But for example SOG manufactures in Japan, as do some others.
Even Lynn Thompson is using the VG-1 only in a few of his knives.
________________________
I'd heard - and don't know if it's true - that a manufacturer who uses a steel made outside the USA can't say the knife is "Made in the USA". And "Made in the USA" is important for many.
I'd heard that's why Buck, for example, went to 154CM from ATS-34.
Cliff Stamp
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The Mastiff said:
Yes, it is, apparently, SGPS is Super G1, but they are also recommending a switch now to Super G2.
Rifon2, one thing to remember is that makers/manufacturers have to sell knives and thus public perception is very important. There have been several clear statements in the past by makers/manufacturers that they don't always use the steel which is optimal as much as the one the public thinks is optimal because at the end of the day if you make an excellent knife which no one buys it isn't overly productive.
Let's say for example you do some work with AUS-6A, which is similiar in regards to C/Cr dissolved in austenite as 440C but with a much lower carbide fraction. Thus you can get a similar hardness and corrosion resistance and a much higher edge stability in AUS6-A. Thus this would be a much better steel for people who want optimal cutting ability and high edge retention at high sharpness, plus it is actually cheaper to buy and work.
Now however ask around and see if you can actually sell that idea. In fact most people will think it is absurd. The actual data supports it but it simply isn't well known. However in time it will be and makers/manufacturers will switch accordingly. Some will actually switch before then and thus lead the field, expect this from guys like Spyderco and Busse Combat.
-Cliff
Is Cold Steel is on the way out?
When I learned that CS was no longer using C-V, I called to ask why. They stated that the folks that had been doing the heat-treating on the C-V had been unreliable in terms of keeping the supply up to the demand; at least that's what I was told. Considering how much CS has based their reputation on this steel I find this reason less that convincing. I am confused other changes in materials by CS: the Kobun (which is not on their web site but seems to be for sale elsewhere) is now made from Krupps 4116 which looks like a step up from the 420 sub-zero quench used previously but down from the AUS-8A use prior to that. VG-1 is supposed to be an upgrade from 8A while SK-5 would appear to be a step down from Carbon V. What kind of financial state is CS in? Does anyone know what is going on with this company?
When I learned that CS was no longer using C-V, I called to ask why. They stated that the folks that had been doing the heat-treating on the C-V had been unreliable in terms of keeping the supply up to the demand; at least that's what I was told. Considering how much CS has based their reputation on this steel I find this reason less that convincing. I am confused other changes in materials by CS: the Kobun (which is not on their web site but seems to be for sale elsewhere) is now made from Krupps 4116 which looks like a step up from the 420 sub-zero quench used previously but down from the AUS-8A use prior to that. VG-1 is supposed to be an upgrade from 8A while SK-5 would appear to be a step down from Carbon V. What kind of financial state is CS in? Does anyone know what is going on with this company?
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Camillus was making their "carbon V" knives. They are out of business. CS needs a new producer because, Cold steel doesn'tt make any knives of their own. The SK-5 replacement, though made elsewhere can still be a good knife. It's equal to roughly our 1080 carbon steel. Carbon V was 0170-6. That was a decent steel, and the new SK5 should be too. I have an old SOG knife made of it and I like it.
420 sub quench was nothing to write home about. Krupps 4116 is an equally cheap steel. I wouldn't bother with either.
VG1 and AUS 8 are mediocre to decent stainless steels at best. For a non demanding or discerning user they will be ok. IMO, Cold steel over charges for mediocre knives.
Yeah, they charge the most they can for the cheapest possible "decent/lower quality products. They'll find other products they can make fantastic claims about no matter where they have to go to have their knives made.
In reality it's easy to find better quality products for cheaper but you won't get all the hype with it, if that's what you like. Do you recall when they were saying Aus8 was better than ATS34, VG10, ATS55, cm154 etc? That lie should tell you everything you need to know about cold steel.
If you like Aus8, and paying twice the amount for it then CS is your company. VG1 , like Aus 8 is a decent steel but for cold steel prices you can get much, much better. Joe
420 sub quench was nothing to write home about. Krupps 4116 is an equally cheap steel. I wouldn't bother with either.
VG1 and AUS 8 are mediocre to decent stainless steels at best. For a non demanding or discerning user they will be ok. IMO, Cold steel over charges for mediocre knives.
Yeah, they charge the most they can for the cheapest possible "decent/lower quality products. They'll find other products they can make fantastic claims about no matter where they have to go to have their knives made.
In reality it's easy to find better quality products for cheaper but you won't get all the hype with it, if that's what you like. Do you recall when they were saying Aus8 was better than ATS34, VG10, ATS55, cm154 etc? That lie should tell you everything you need to know about cold steel.
If you like Aus8, and paying twice the amount for it then CS is your company. VG1 , like Aus 8 is a decent steel but for cold steel prices you can get much, much better. Joe
Larrin
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I thought we'd already been over this. VG-1 is a perfectly good steel. Just because Cold Steel chooses to switch to it doesn't make it a bad steel. It has a low volume of primary carbide compared to 154CM and 440C. It gets very hard, has medium corrosion resistance and good toughness for a 1% C stainless.
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And Cold steel overcharges for it IN MY OPINION. Yes, we have been over this. Also in my opinion, they could do much better for the price. They could be using VG10 in fact. Or plenty of other steels I like better, but we're talking my opinion, nothing more. .
I also thought CS overcharged for the old line of "Carbon V", AUS 8, and especially their "400" series steel knives too. Joe
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I paid the same price for an AUS8 voyager and El Hombre as I paid for an AUS8 Delica. MSRP is too high, but the only time street prices on CS knives were bad was due to economic exposure and changes in the yen pushing their Japanese made knives through the roof.
If you follow Cold Steels products for the last 10 years, you'll see that their steels go down in edge holding performance (i.e. AUS8A to 420, Carbon V to 1055, etc.) where as other companies like BM or SC go from 154CM to S30V or ATS-55 to VG-10. Nothing really too wrong with CS, they just market knives made in other places. In other words, they're just the middle man.
Cliff Stamp
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SOme of these choices are not downgrades. If you would judge VG-1 to be inferior to VG-10 for example then you would think the sandvik steels (12C27, 13C26) are horrible knife steels.
-Cliff
-Cliff
people really get into the whole this steel versus
that steel thing. I have to say, that I think it's the
markerting of these steels that make them so great.
I like steels, I like knives.
What I have found that expensive steels don't always
live up to the hype and yesterdays steel can work just fine.
Marketing the steel is sort of like the low hanging fruit
of the cutlery business. It's harder to market edge and
blade geometries which have the greatest impact on performance.
It's easy to say 154CM vs. 420HC.... it's 2 discrete variables (seemingly).
But start talking about edge and blade geometries and
most people either don't care or don't know (no not us knife knuts).
I've only heard this type of talk (geometries) from Spyderco and a hint of it
from Kershaw and a few others every so often.
If there would be more focus on this, knife performance
would improve signifcantly then by just 'upgrading' the steel.
that steel thing. I have to say, that I think it's the
markerting of these steels that make them so great.
I like steels, I like knives.
What I have found that expensive steels don't always
live up to the hype and yesterdays steel can work just fine.
Marketing the steel is sort of like the low hanging fruit
of the cutlery business. It's harder to market edge and
blade geometries which have the greatest impact on performance.
It's easy to say 154CM vs. 420HC.... it's 2 discrete variables (seemingly).
But start talking about edge and blade geometries and
most people either don't care or don't know (no not us knife knuts).
I've only heard this type of talk (geometries) from Spyderco and a hint of it
from Kershaw and a few others every so often.
If there would be more focus on this, knife performance
would improve signifcantly then by just 'upgrading' the steel.
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I recently bought a 2XL Voyager in VG-1 (I forgot to look at what the steel was) for $100 CDN. While I have not had much of a chance to use it roughly- the edge retention has been very good while cutting out newspaper articles (compulsive) and touch ups have either been a light hit with a fine diamond or simply stropping. I am now not adverse to this steel. My opinion only.
P.S. where else can one find a 6" bladed folder for under $100???
P.S. where else can one find a 6" bladed folder for under $100???
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You mean that when I use my 4-inch Vaquero, I won't think I'm using a chainsaw???? Maybe that's why I couldn't find the power switch! And I thought I had purchased a "cutting dynamo!" You do know how to dash a guy's hopes, don't you?
I don't think they said it was actually "better," did they? With VG-1 they said that after they had arrived at a specified set of criteria, and looking at the benefits of each, the steel that scored in the most areas just happened to be the steel they'd just been able to buy in HUGE bulk quanities. It was an amazing coincidence.
Well, Joe, I reckon that's one way to look at it. Buying Cold Steel on eBay does make the purchase price a bit more reasonable, but in defense of the company, they do make strong locking knives which are, let's face it, geared more for combat/fighting/defense. Besides, if I'm a guy with sixty bucks in my wallet and I want a pocket knife I can use against black bear, where am I going to find a better deal that Cold Steel's Vaquero Grande or Voyager X2? You have to admit CS knives are strong and dependable, and it's not like you can buy a comparable locker knife by any of the other top manufacturers. Even if Benchmade produced a folding locker with a 6-inch ATS-34 blade, it would likely cost an arm and a leg (not to mention the fact that you probably couldn't pound the blade through a steel drum). But again, Benchmade isn't into fighting knives. Even CRKT (which makes some remarkably nice knives) makes folders that are only liner locks: fine for daily uses, but not a great choice for combat use.
So that's why Cold Steel has videos of their knives ripping apart slabs of beef hanging from meathooks. They are NOT made to impress anyone who doesn't intend their knives to pull double duty between defense and daily chores, such as cutting open UPS boxes containing their next Cold Steel slasher.
That's why VG-1 or AUS 8A is a moot debate. Cold Steel buys their steel based on what they can get in volume pricing (I had a long chat with one of their technical guys). If they buy a HUGE batch of 440A, they'll run a bunch of Night Forces. When they run out, and the Night Force is popular, then they'll reissue it in another steel. If not, it's bye-bye.
VG-1 probably has slightly better edge retention that AUS 8A, but AUS 8A probably has slightly better toughness. Whether VG-1 constitutes a major upgrade is debatable. Had it been VG-10 or 154CM, it wouldn't have.
Right now Cold Steel has some old AUS 8A Voyagers with 5-inch blades, two for eighty dollars, which ain't a bad price. If you watch their specials and their seconds, you can get some pretty good deals.
the grade of vg-1 is lower than that of vg-10.
vg-1 ,is used in chef kniven in japan,and which is similar to aus 8a or 440 series ...
By the way ,a lot of models of cold steel ,spy ,al-mar ,are produced by g.sakai.company.
for japanes steel, higher grade than vg-10 should be sgps & zdp-189
vg-1 ,is used in chef kniven in japan,and which is similar to aus 8a or 440 series ...
By the way ,a lot of models of cold steel ,spy ,al-mar ,are produced by g.sakai.company.
for japanes steel, higher grade than vg-10 should be sgps & zdp-189