VG10 rolling after cutting cardboard

Joined
Feb 8, 2011
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386
the edge on my endura 4 rolled big time after cutting through some medium thick cardboard....is this normal?? seems odd to me as a 20$ gerber gator held up better push cutting it same with my $40 gerber in ats-34, i dont think i sharpened it wrong, all 3 have roughly the same angle and all 3 were sharpened up to my arkansas then stropped on green compound tell the edge was smooth and not toothy, i just dont see why it did that and i'm sad b/c my endura is my favorite knife :(
 
Depends on the edge angle and how thin it is behind the edge. Is this the FFG Endura?

I managed to roll my Phil Wilson South Fork in M390 at Rc 62 cutting 3 layer 1-inch thick cardboard. Believe me when I say that you'd rather have the edge roll as opposed to chipping.

I don't think there's any knife suited to cutting cardboard aside from box cutters, though you can't cut the really thick pieces with those. Aside from S90V and similar steels, every other knife I've taken to thick cardboard has either rolled or chipped.
 
its the sabre grind set at 13-15 per side (hand sharpened), the cardboard was 2 layer 1/4 think from an old fridge box and i was push cutting it
 
Depends on the edge angle and how thin it is behind the edge. Is this the FFG Endura?

I managed to roll my Phil Wilson South Fork in M390 at Rc 62 cutting 3 layer 1-inch thick cardboard. Believe me when I say that you'd rather have the edge roll as opposed to chipping.

I don't think there's any knife suited to cutting cardboard aside from box cutters, though you can't cut the really thick pieces with those. Aside from S90V and similar steels, every other knife I've taken to thick cardboard has either rolled or chipped.

That's crazy talk! (humorous hyperbole here, I don't actually think this is crazy.)

25 years of using a knife, and I have never rolled an edge or chipped an edge on cardboard, or wood for that matter! (where I did not find metal or other crap in the cardboard that did the damage)

I only edge damage I have ever had from cutting cardboard, even very thick stuff where I had to use lots of force, is when I find the stupid super heavy duty staples with the edge.

If cutting cardboard pushes your edges too hard, try taking the edge back a bit in angle. 13 degrees per side is pretty shallow (depending on uses). Steel the rolls out if possible, and try a steeper bevel, even a small micro bevel might help the performance.

Spiderco's tend to be ground thinner than many similar sized knifes. That is why so many people love them. makes them better slicers.

I would bet, if you took a mic to your blade behind the grind on the spiderco, you would find it has less meat there than the gerber's measuring the same distance up from the edge.

Just a thought.
 
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I'm glad to hear that it rolled at that thin angle instead of chipping. I heard you could use a steel on VG-10 to true it up when it rolls.
 
One of the gerbers i'm talking about i took down to 9-10 per side tho, even if it has more behind the edge it still seems odd, and my endura no longer shaves either just after 3 long cuts of cardboard :/
 
VG-10 is good steel but you are expecting way too much performance from it. Cardboard can be very rough on a blade or it can hardly do a thing it just all depends on how it was made.

VG-10 is also NOT a highly wear resistant steel and will perform better on soft materials, something abrasive like cardboard shows it weakness quickly.
 
One of the gerbers i'm talking about i took down to 9-10 per side tho, even if it has more behind the edge it still seems odd, and my endura no longer shaves either just after 3 long cuts of cardboard :/
Interesting. 10-15 degrees is pretty low by most standards. I would use 20 degrees per side for heavy duty cutting.

However, Ankerson tested ATS-34 to have better edge retention than VG-10, so I'm not sure why you have a complaint about that.

That's crazy talk!

25 years of using a knife, and I have never rolled an edge or chipped an edge on cardboard, or wood for that matter!

I only edge damage I have ever had from cutting cardboard, even very thick stuff where I had to use lots of force, is when I find the stupid super heavy duty staples with the edge.

If cutting cardboard pushes your edges too hard, try taking the edge back a bit in angle. 13 degrees per side is pretty shallow (depending on uses). Steel the rolls out if possible, and try a steeper bevel, even a small micro bevel might help the performance.

Spiderco's tend to be ground thinner than many similar sized knifes. That is why so many people love them. makes them better slicers.

I would bet, if you took a mic to your blade behind the grind on the spiderco, you would find it has less meat there than the gerber's measuring the same distance up from the edge.

Just a thought.
Well to be fair, none of my knives would exhibit chipping or rolling from cutting say, USPS flat rate cardboard boxes. The kind of cardboard I'm cutting is used to reinforce a pallet of items, typically stacked about 10 feet or higher, so it would naturally have to be pretty tough stuff. It's about as thin as or even thinner than the USPS stuff, but the difficulty in cutting it is ridiculous. It's like cutting dense hard wood at twice the thickness, maybe more.

And again, the cardboard that rolled my M390 blade was about an inch thick, used to stack up watermelons onto a pallet about 4 feet high. Definitely different from postal boxes.
 
And again, the cardboard that rolled my M390 blade was about an inch thick, used to stack up watermelons onto a pallet about 4 feet high. Definitely different from postal boxes.


I know exactly what you were cutting, that is some VERY tough cardboard, it's heavy, very dense and very strong.
 
That's crazy talk!

25 years of using a knife, and I have never rolled an edge or chipped an edge on cardboard, or wood for that matter!

I only edge damage I have ever had from cutting cardboard, even very thick stuff where I had to use lots of force, is when I find the stupid super heavy duty staples with the edge.

If cutting cardboard pushes your edges too hard, try taking the edge back a bit in angle. 13 degrees per side is pretty shallow (depending on uses). Steel the rolls out if possible, and try a steeper bevel, even a small micro bevel might help the performance.

Spiderco's tend to be ground thinner than many similar sized knifes. That is why so many people love them. makes them better slicers.

I would bet, if you took a mic to your blade behind the grind on the spiderco, you would find it has less meat there than the gerber's measuring the same distance up from the edge.

Just a thought.

Not really, cardboard can tear apart an edge on a just about any knife depending on what kind of cardboard it is.

Some cardboard has a lot of dirt in it, clay, glass, some metal and other junk and it can really be hard on edges (Like taking the knife and stabbing it in the yard and cutting dirt with it), even clean non recycled cardboard can be tough on knives depending on how thick and dense it is because of the additives they put in it.

Been cutting cardboard for decades with all kinds of different types of knives and I am talking a lot of cardboard from working in the food industry and have seen some strange things happen to knife blades over the years.
 
I've never rolled the edge on any of my VG-10 knives as it's a pretty tough steel! You didn't hit any stapples going through did you?
 
I've never rolled the edge on any of my VG-10 knives as it's a pretty tough steel! You didn't hit any stapples going through did you?

The post right above yours explains some details you might be overlooking. Not all cardboard is created equal.
 
I think that you are sharpening at too steep of an angle. Try 20° - 25° each side and see how that works. Either that or convex the edge.

I have found that while VG10 is a great steel, it also needs a little more behind it for support.

And as far as the ATS34 vs. VG10 debate, I would agree that while ATS34 is a bit tougher, VG10 has better corrosion resistance.
 
Interesting. 10-15 degrees is pretty low by most standards. I would use 20 degrees per side for heavy duty cutting.

However, Ankerson tested ATS-34 to have better edge retention than VG-10, so I'm not sure why you have a complaint about that.


Well to be fair, none of my knives would exhibit chipping or rolling from cutting say, USPS flat rate cardboard boxes. The kind of cardboard I'm cutting is used to reinforce a pallet of items, typically stacked about 10 feet or higher, so it would naturally have to be pretty tough stuff. It's about as thin as or even thinner than the USPS stuff, but the difficulty in cutting it is ridiculous. It's like cutting dense hard wood at twice the thickness, maybe more.

And again, the cardboard that rolled my M390 blade was about an inch thick, used to stack up watermelons onto a pallet about 4 feet high. Definitely different from postal boxes.

I have cut all kinds of cardboard, so I know about the heavy stuff too! I worked at a grain plant, were we used super dense slip sheets (stack 1.5 tons of popcorn in bags on a sheet of cardboard, then use a slip sheet puller fork lift that grabs the edge of the cardboard and pulls it out from underneath 1.5 tons of bags). I also worked at a plant that manufactured diamond surface carbide substrate drill bits for oil and natural gas drilling industries. Lots of very very heavy cardboard there.

I have cut cardboard so thick that it I actually had to baton the knife through it like I would when cutting wood.

My point was not that cardboard is not tough, or even "impossible" to cut with a knife (because I have met cardboard that was for practical purposes not actually able to be cut with my knife).

My point was that if he takes that same knife, and moves the edge angle to a steeper angle like 20 per side, he will be able to cut without edge damage.


Nothing magical about the knives I use, that they aren't damaged by cardboard, but that they guaranteed have a thicker stronger bevel.

I know a lot of people that carry and use knives with 10 degrees per side on a knife.

I find this to be too thin for most of my uses. It will be fine for cutting soft material, with no torsional stress applied, but hit a patch of dense cardboard and you can rolll the edge. (one great example is the very dense corner reinforcers for big items like new refrigerators).

Carpet roll center tubes is another great example. Stuff I can stand on and bounce up and down on with all 350lbs and not get to crease.

I have cut that stuff with my knives before. (the knife for that was about 50 degrees inclusive at least).

With a thin grind, you will still get decent slicing performance with a thicker edge bevel. Might even want to try steeling the edge back into shape, then trying a thicker micro bevel.

As for breaking down cardboard. 7 years stocking and breaking down boxes in the food industry as a kid. A year working at a grainery (also stored and sold bulk popcorn using cardboard slip sheets with super high density). 5 years working at a factory manufacturing PDC cutters (Polycrystalline Diamond drill bits with a tungsten carbide substrate) for the oil and gas industry (some of the cardboard there was basically only able to be cut with saws to break it down to fit in the smaller dumpster in my area, before being dumped in the mega dumpster on the other side of the plant).


Cardboard can be terrible for edges. It can have grit, dirt, bits of metal, particles of what ever the crap they recycled into it. I have damaged an edge (dented or chipped) when finding junk embedded in the cardboard when cutting (but when looking I have found what caused the damage, and it was not the cardboard particles that did it!) Even when cardboard is "clean" with no bits of hard stuff in it. It will still dull your edge very very quickly, as it is very abrasive. I was not using magic steels, or high end steels (especially back then). Just a basic steel, with a much steeper angle on the edge than 10 per side! That was my point.
 
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Gave a mini persian to my inside sales guy - the edge rolls every time he tries to cut cardboard in the showroom - these are not super thick/strong cardboard boxes, either.
 
I get the feeling that there is a feathered edge that acted like a burr on that edge. I think a micro-bevel is the way to go here. Like mentioned above, something around 20 degrees per side.
 
Cardboard is in my opinion not the best test of an edge, many high end steels that I have tested cardboard cutting have had large chips, yesterday I cut about a 75 2ft long strips of cardboard with my SOG aegis, it sliced great, but it was pretty dull after that, but much to my chagrin there was some serious chipping on the edge, I didn't reprofile it at all out of the box, I started with the factory edge, just polished and stropped it. It was easy enough to get the chips out. But cardboard is rough.
 
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its the sabre grind set at 13-15 per side (hand sharpened), the cardboard was 2 layer 1/4 think from an old fridge box and i was push cutting it

can't help with the rolling but for cardboard that thick, i use the tip to scour/cut maybe half-way through it from top to bottom then i flip it over, bend it to create a crease and cut it through from that side. much less work than straight up push cutting and easier on the edge. it's almost like how hardware stores cut tiles or glass panes - better technique over pure brute force.
 
If one is cutting a lot of cardboard the V steels are ones to use like S30V, S90V, S110V and CTS 20CP.

Also ELMAX, M390 and XHP do very well.

Steels with a good amount of carbides in them really do well on cardboard, but the edge finish does matter as does the angle.

In production blades I wouldn't go below 30 inclusive, but in customs that are near max hardness it can be dropped to around 24 inclusive depending on the steel and the thickness above the edge.

It all depends on what kind of cardboard ones cutting and I still say a box cutter is the best thing to use overall because of the super thin blades and they are quick change.

In the end if one wants to use a knife for cardboard the steels I recommended about would be the best choices due to the edge retention and they all develop nice working edges that will cut for a very long time.
 
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