Video of my test of Zubeng Forge Knives..

Tamahagane is the word used today to describe the steel smelted in a tatara.

About 967 years ago the Japanese learned this way of making steel from the Chinese. They took process to Japan and kept the tradition.

What was the word for tamahagane before the Japanese took it to Japan? It come from China. I do not know but I would think the Chinese had a word for it before the Japanese learned it from them.

Can we say the Japanese are using the wrong word since this steel process come from China?

The book that Gassan San gave me shows and tells a lot. It also shows Chinese style swords 'Jian' Gassan San pointed out quickly that the history of Japanese swords is rooted in Chinese tradition. The book even has early pictures of Chinese style swords made in Japan.

Now please understand this is not from me this is from Gassan San the National Living Treasure in Japan.

I do not know enough about steel making or swords. But I can tell what the Master Maker told me.
 
3_hard_boiled_eggs said:
A man that studied steel and its characteristics told me that the Hard carbides will act like sharks teeth. Now from my personal experience. These knives will not be as sharp when new as when they are used a bit, reason? The man told me that the steel has a mixture of hard and soft carbides. When the knife is new they will be ground to the same level at the blades edge. In time, not a long time, but in time the soft carbides will wear away and expose the hard carbides. This separation of hard and soft will be high and low parts on the blade. When the hard carbides standing up act like sharks teeth they cut or tear. So the reason the blade does not feel sharp but cuts when used is the standing carbides when pulled or drawn will act like sharks teeth.

This was explained to me by a meteorologist, wait maybe that was the weather yesterday, metallurgist. If the truth is known I do not know my self. My personal knife was not so sharp when i first got it and i sharpen it 2 or 3 times lightly and then it was scarey how sharp it was.
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This is even better.

Thanks a lot, Vassili.
 
3_hard_boiled_eggs said:
Tamahagane is the word used today to describe the steel smelted in a tatara.

About 967 years ago the Japanese learned this way of making steel from the Chinese. They took process to Japan and kept the tradition.

What was the word for tamahagane before the Japanese took it to Japan? It come from China. I do not know but I would think the Chinese had a word for it before the Japanese learned it from them.

Can we say the Japanese are using the wrong word since this steel process come from China?

The book that Gassan San gave me shows and tells a lot. It also shows Chinese style swords 'Jian' Gassan San pointed out quickly that the history of Japanese swords is rooted in Chinese tradition. The book even has early pictures of Chinese style swords made in Japan.

Now please understand this is not from me this is from Gassan San the National Living Treasure in Japan.

I do not know enough about steel making or swords. But I can tell what the Master Maker told me.
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So because 1000 years ago Japanese learn steel making from Chines, Chines now can use any Japanese brand to sell whatever they made... Sounds pretty logical.

I think you may also reuse not only tamahagane word, but learn more and use them as well - ZDP189 for example. Why not? After all it was Chinese who teach Japanese metallurgy!

Thanks, Vassili.
 
tamahagane is not a brand. I would say the use of the word is no more wrong than saying damascus, wootz, or bulat today.
 
hardheart said:
tamahagane is not a brand. I would say the use of the word is no more wrong than saying damascus, wootz, or bulat today.
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However even if it is not a brand they can not call whatever they pleased this way it should be at least some similarity with original tamahagane.

Tamahagane is well defined term, unlike wootz and bulat which nobody really know how to make yet (there are several attempts some better some not). I almost buy this knives mistaken by terms tamohagane, but it is not one I was looking for. I can not say is it good steel or bad, but I am not interested any more.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
Give it a rest Nozh. Any more of this high and mighty I am a steel genius stuff and people are going to start calling you CliffStamp......

The man smelts his own steel, not from Japanese earth but who does?? Japan keeps all "tamahagane" in country. Tamahagane is characterized by it's forging process, not chemical composition or raw materials. But as always, thanks for the very critical opinion ;)

These knives look very promising, great review RTDTB
 
007 Agent ZZero said:
Give it a rest Nozh. Any more of this high and mighty I am a steel genius stuff and people are going to start calling you CliffStamp......

The man smelts his own steel, not from Japanese earth but who does?? Japan keeps all "tamahagane" in country. Tamahagane is characterized by it's forging process, not chemical composition or raw materials. But as always, thanks for the very critical opinion ;)

These knives look very promising, great review RTDTB
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Tamahagane is smelting process not forging - sorry if you see me high and mighty, just because I found Japanese source and bothered to read it.

Do you think it is OK to sell something different then labeled?

Do you see difference between Chinese self-smelted steel and Japanese hundreds years old perfected by many generation sword crafting tradition?

Thanks, Vassili.

I would consider it as promised, until they try to sell it as something different.
 
nozh2002 said:
However even if it is not a brand they can not call whatever they pleased this way it should be at least some similarity with original tamahagane.

Tamahagane is well defined term, unlike wootz and bulat which nobody really know how to make yet (there are several attempts some better some not). I almost buy this knives mistaken by terms tamohagane, but it is not one I was looking for. I can not say is it good steel or bad, but I am not interested any more.
Thanks, Vassili.
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Thank you for your opinion now buzz off please...

Honestly Nozh the more you post in this thread the more ignorant you sound. I do not know how one man can thump his chest and claim to be an expert on tamahagane steel when one has never owned a tamahagane sword or knife, used one, or even held one in his hand? I for one groaned when you posted early in this thread because I think that you are a complete ignorant when it comes to anything cutlery related. I do not intend this as an insult ( although to someone with your ego it is insulting) it is just an observation. I probably deserve an infraction for this but I felt compelled to call it like I see it. If you had cared enough to look at the thread in custom knives about the making of the exact knife in my hands...with Pictures...you would at least be better informed. Your stupidity is just so unbelievably stupid...Stop the madness
 
Ren the devils trailboss said:
Thank you for your opinion now buzz off please...

Honestly Nozh the more you post in this thread the more ignorant you sound. I do not know how one man can thump his chest and claim to be an expert on tamahagane steel when one has never owned a tamahagane sword or knife, used one, or even held one in his hand? I for one groaned when you posted early in this thread because I think that you are a complete ignorant when it comes to anything cutlery related. I do not intend this as an insult ( although to someone with your ego it is insulting) it is just an observation. I probably deserve an infraction for this but I felt compelled to call it like I see it. If you had cared enough to look at the thread in custom knives about the making of the exact knife in my hands...with Pictures...you would at least be better informed. Your stupidity is just so unbelievably stupid...Stop the madness
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I am not sure why you are turn attention to me. Aren't we talking about attempt to sell some self-smelted Chinese iron as Japanese sword steel tamahagane? You do not need to be an expert to read Japanese sources in English and compare what they all say to what is presented here. This "tamahagane" is obviously not original one even for non expert - you do not need to be an expert to see difference.

Even just basic thing - tamahagane is steel smelted by tatar method - best parts of kera, jusr read it. Out of tamahagane they forge swords, but forging and folding is not called tamahagane - only raw high carbon steel called.

Do you need to be an expert to see that this is not what they describes on their website? I am not an expert in tamahagane, but in this case it is pretty easy to recognize what is going on.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
3_hard_boiled_eggs said:
Master Chen and I visited Gassan San one of the most famous sword makers in Japan. He saw Master Chens tamahagane and he says it is tamahagane. I hardly know a carbon steel from stainless. But if you have any doubts about this tamahagane you can ask Gassan San in Japan. Master Chen will visit him in a few days from today. I believe that Gassan San is the president of the Sword Makers Club in Japan this year. I could be wrong.
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So a master sword smith from Japan says it is the real thing, but we are to believe you instead:confused:

Seriously, :foot: < YOU

The above comment was NOT directed at Ren or 3hardboiledeggs

Chuck
 
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nozh2002 said:
I am not sure why you are turn attention to me. Aren't we talking about attempt to sell some self-smelted Chinese iron as Japanese sword steel tamahagane? Thanks, Vassili.
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Grrrr let me try and control my temper. Actually the attention to you is because in your first thread in this post ( which was unwelcome) you make a thinly veiled attempt to accuse Master Chen of fraud. When proven wrong you still will not STFU and you start blathering on about smelting...blah blah blah ad nauseum. This is not "some self smelted Chinese Iron being sold as Japanese sword steel" In my test video or any thing that has been said by myself has ever mentioned Japanese Steel. I am posted this review because I was simply impressed with Master Chens knives YOU are the one trolling in this thread and causing it to drift off to your vague, idiotic drivel.

I am going to ask you nice...Stay out of this thread. If you ignore this request I will ban you and the hell with the consequences. No need to respond to this post. STAY OUT YOUR OPINIONS ARE NOT WELCOME AND OFF THE INTENDED POINT OF THIS THREAD your consistent trolling on this forum is becoming tiresome and I wont say it again...period.
 
Gentlemen, let's get back to the main topic, the Zubeng Forge knives themselves. Disagreement over the name of the material may deserve its own thread. I invite anyone so inclined to start one. It no longer has a place here as an ongoing distraction.

By the way, 3_hard_boiled_eggs, thank you for participating. You are a gentleman and a scholar, and I enjoyed your contributing here. :)
 
Esav Benyamin said:
Gentlemen, let's get back to the main topic, the Zubeng Forge knives themselves. Disagreement over the name of the material may deserve its own thread. I invite anyone so inclined to start one. It no longer has a place here as an ongoing distraction.

By the way, 3_hard_boiled_eggs, thank you for participating. You are a gentleman and a scholar, and I enjoyed your contributing here. :)
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thanks the reason i posted the story about the steel is to let people see what we do here. we are not a factory we are a workshop or work room. its a family thing if you do not count the boy that sweeps and cleans or the lady that cooks and cleans. all is family but the 2 now 3 students studying master chen's work.

i asked master chen yesterday what was tamahagane called before the Japanese took the skills to japan. he said in Chinese this steel is called 'grass iron'

master chen told me that the Japanese did not even have a name for it until about 200 years ago. they just called it steel. the name was began because western men wanted to buy swords because of the nice patterns in the steel. so they asked where did this come from and what is it called. since they did not have a name for it some makers come together and called it tamahagane. that is master chen's reply to me regarding this name.

but i want to thank all of you for reading and checking out the photos. as you know a picture is worth a thousand words. here words sometimes are cheap or cheap shots.

at no time have i or master chen said our steel comes from japan. we do not claim now or never it come from or parts of it come from japan.

we post on all name cards web sites and forums we are in china.

thanks again.
 
That looks like a really high performance blade, and blade steel.
I would like to see Ren do some "serious" full-swing chopping with the big knife...just because. :cool:

I only wish I could afford one of those blades....:(
 
3_hard_boiled_eggs said:
i asked master chen yesterday what was tamahagane called before the Japanese took the skills to japan. he said in Chinese this steel is called 'grass iron'

master chen told me that the Japanese did not even have a name for it until about 200 years ago. they just called it steel. the name was began because western men wanted to buy swords because of the nice patterns in the steel. so they asked where did this come from and what is it called. since they did not have a name for it some makers come together and called it tamahagane. that is master chen's reply to me regarding this name.
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I would advise caution before you make any statement as quite a few Chinese are visiting this forum regularly and you probably know master Chen and his steel are very well-debated over there.
 
That's fine On Bladeforums, we are willing to discuss it. nozh2002 has a new thread on tamahagane itself going on now. As long as we don't get into crossforum flaming, other opinions are welcome. But there's no need for any of us to hold back because others may disagree.
 
Gerberblades said:
Thanks for the video!

"Zubeng forge in China" I assume he is Chinese, but I am not totally sure. Makes a very nice knife though and hella sharp!
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he is a chinese , and comes from taiwan.
now , he have a workshop in yangjiang of china.
 
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